What if the definitions of "male" and "female" were broad enough to cover all of us?  We would all be male or female, depending on which side of the border we ended up on, but society would accept us as we are.  All the male and female stereotypes we don't fit and expectations we don't meet would be gone.

In other words, what if the cities of Male and Female expanded their borders to include the unicorn forest?

What would you think of that?

Quote from: BlueSloth on February 20, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
What if the definitions of "male" and "female" were broad enough to cover all of us?  We would all be male or female, depending on which side of the border we ended up on, but society would accept us as we are.  All the male and female stereotypes we don't fit and expectations we don't meet would be gone.

In other words, what if the cities of Male and Female expanded their borders to include the unicorn forest?

What would you think of that?

Took me a moment to realise what you were on about and stop thinking of magical forrest of unicorns

I still think we'd be different, we might just not realise it until either later on in life, or just not at all. I probably didn't notice I wasn't all guy later on in life than normal because my mother was MTF, so for the whole of my life gender steriotypes haven't really meant anything to me

I could accept the hypothetical of physical sex being binary, except for the relatively rare cases where it's not.  But what is gender in your view, if it can be an absolute and yet is not tied to expectations of behavior and appearance?  What differentiates sex and gender?  If they cannot disagree, why have concepts of both?

With this scenario you're basically confirming to me that I can't begin to think of gender as being binary or simple anymore.

If there were no concept of gender outside male and female, it would be necessary to divide the self into sections that can be either... thus a whole person is still not a binary male or female.  Even physical sex can be categorized differently according to chromosomes, hormones, gonads, reproductive organs, and secondary characteristics.  The psyche is a far less understood and quantifiable thing.

If there were no social expectations or stigma regarding gender presentation or expression... I think I would *still* feel like part of my consciousness is female and some part isn't.

I think I know what you're getting it, but if the discourse surrounding gender got to that point, it would be moot anyway because it only exists due to our conceptualizations of both gender and sex (since sex isn't binary either).

Quote from: foosnark on February 20, 2012, 11:21:02 AM
I could accept the hypothetical of physical sex being binary, except for the relatively rare cases where it's not.  But what is gender in your view, if it can be an absolute and yet is not tied to expectations of behavior and appearance?  What differentiates sex and gender?  If they cannot disagree, why have concepts of both?

Both genders in this hypothetical world still have expectations of behavior and appearance; the difference is the expectations are diverse enough to cover everybody.

Quote from: Alex11003131 on February 20, 2012, 05:58:45 AM
Took me a moment to realise what you were on about and stop thinking of magical forrest of unicorns

Hehe that's the standard metaphor here.

Hmm... if there were no forest between the cities of Male and Female, there would still be people who had dual citizenship, or lived in one and worked in the other, or who had a favorite restaurant or park across the border.  Some people would wake each morning not yet sure whether they were in Ftown or Mville until they spent a moment figuring it out.

Quote from: foosnark on February 20, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
Some people would wake each morning not yet sure whether they were in Ftown or Mville until they spent a moment figuring it out.

Yup.

And people who lived right on the border and stayed there would have a really hard time figuring it out.  But at least there'd only be one border to worry about.

There is, in the forest, a lot of speculation about the cities.
Look at all the self claimed binaries that post in the forest section. Wonder why?

The only thing I can see that comes close to verifying the cities, is that there are people who claim they live there.
I wouldn't know, never actually entered what looked like a city.

Could be that the forest is reclaiming land that once was a part of the cities.
Could be that the forest has become so large that it cannot be ignored any longer.
There are just to many people who have lived their entire lives here.

There are many people from here who have ventured to what they say is the cities, but they spend a large share of there time here.
But, at the same time, we hear of people who still claim we do not exist.
Or is it just that they have never ventured past the edges of those cities?

I don't know if any of that is true, it's just speculation. (just speculation mods, just that)
It's just hard to imagine that there are cities, let alone expanding into the forest.

Ativan

If it were broad enough to cover me, then I'd be one of them. But it aint, so I'm not.

I'll answer my question now..

I don't really know how I'd feel about it.  My first thought is to say I obviously don't think 2 genders are enough, otherwise I wouldn't have an A in my gender box here...  but my hypothetical world is different enough from this one that it's hard to tell what I'd really think.  People there would realize that their gender categories are too broad to mean much, and would thus care less about gender and more about individual differences.

I wonder what I'd think about my body.  Here in the real world it's causing me some dysphoria.  I don't know how much of that is an intrinsic thing independent of society, and how much of it is caused by me worrying about my male appearance affecting how people think of me.  In the hypothetical world I'd still look male, but it wouldn't matter to other people as much.

What got me thinking about this was people trying to cling to the gender binary, saying things like "there's too many genders" and "two are enough".  I started wondering how different things would have to be for them to be right.

The best situation would be a world that gender wasn't questioned or of matter to another person.
That we could all just accept each other for our more important atributes.
Maybe people will evolve, we are the beginning of understanding for the world.
They are having problems with the concept, but it is not impossible for them.
I think that is starting to sink in for them.
It's a world apart from ours, but it is entirely possible. It just takes maturity and respect.
Another difficult hill to ascend.

In the meantime, I'm staying in my tree house and that's that. Visitors always welcome.
Ativan