Quote from: Arch on February 25, 2012, 03:05:08 PM
Don't you all realize how arbitrary these sex categories are? And how stupidly, dogmatically binary they are? So binary that PTBs have no clear idea how to classify an intersex baby--for years and years, ever since it's been possible, people have been so married to the idea that everyone MUST fit into a particular anatomical box that they have ordered horrifically invasive surgeries to make these babies conform.

The taxonomy DOES NOT ACCOUNT for people like that or for people like us. It DAMAGES such people and punishes them for not fitting in. Therefore, it is inherently flawed, deeply flawed--and, I submit, it is therefore an INVALID classification system.

I don't mean that it isn't used in the "real world" as a medical and legal categorization system; it clearly is. But it DOESN'T WORK. Therefore, I reject it. And if Nygeel rejects it, too, more power to him. He's not deluded; he's simply REDEFINING THE TERMS. His system seems to work very nicely for him, despite your protests that he must be a mental case. In fact, if he's doing what I think he's doing, he is using a classification system that works one hundred percent of the time for anybody who cares to use it.

Which is a helluva lot better than the ninety-seven or ninety-eight percent system that currently tyrannizes us from birth to death.

So you'd agree with Nygeel that he's 100% physically male?

Quote from: poptart on February 25, 2012, 03:13:26 PMSo you'd agree with Nygeel that he's 100% physically male?

That's not quite the language he used, but I don't know whether it matters.

Reread his earliest posts in this thread. In his classification system, nobody else has the right to define Nygeel's body.

Quote from: Arch on February 25, 2012, 03:25:01 PM
That's not quite the language he used, but I don't know whether it matters.

Reread his earliest posts in this thread. In his classification system, nobody else has the right to define Nygeel's body.

Thank you Arch for your posts.  You say what I've wanted to say more clearly than I could. 

No one is deluding themselves here, at least I'm not, I know that I was not AMAB but I call myself male.  Does that lead me to believe that I am exactly like a person who is/was AMAB?  No, because I know the circumstances regarding my birth. 

Why get so technical?  If a person came to you in public and said "are you male or female?" (which has happened to me btw) what would you say?  "well technically I'm female but I view myself as a man?"

*SIGH* I see that this isn't getting anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree, I guess.

The only way I think someone is delusional is if they deny they were ever in anyway female.

You can have a non binary identity and still be a binary XX. If you are XX you are biologically female regardless of how you define yourself otherwise. Your mental gender doesn't change your physical or chromosomal gender.

I think how people who fall outside the binary are treated is flawed, not necessarily the binary itself. It will always exist.

I think the problem here is that everyone one had their own opinion, hurray, but some of us are not as strong as others emotionally and this is a thread which pretty much consists of 7 pages of saying "stiff ->-bleeped-<- you'll never be <item>"

I really don't think it's appropriate, I don't get easily triggered, but even I've had a sad about it.

It's no ones place to be saying "there is no Santa" if I want to be deluded I should be, it's not your place to tell me otherwise, and frankly I'm not sure if this stuff really even belongs on a support site, if a certain blogger had said half of this stuff, you lot would have your pitchforks out

I think the binary is flawed (male/female sex), but then why use the binary to challenge the binary?

Look, I happen to think that the strict male/female taxonomy is horribly messed up and inadequate. It doesn't account for me, so I no longer recognize it as valid. I'm clearly not the only one.

Other people can use whatever system they like, but I think it's horribly presumptuous to apply it to someone else who doesn't accept it. And to tell another person that he's delusional for finding and applying a system that DOES work.

If you like the M/F classification system, with all of its flaws and lacunae, I'm happy for you. It's wonderful to be able to work within a system that already exists and that is already accepted by the vast majority. But that taxonomy has only brought me grief, so I now reject it. I'm still trying to find a better way to look at myself, but the classic medical/legal definitions just don't work for me--or for a lot of people. So I reserve the right to redefine the terms. Not for others but for me. I realize that a personal taxonomy has no medical or legal validity, but I'm not using it for that. I'm using it for self-definition. Please respect that.

Weirdly enough, I'm starting to think of sex classification the same way I view religion. After all, both of them are constructed by humans and are not inherently "natural." If you worship a zucchini and I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I have no business telling you that you're wrong for not believing what I believe. Similarly, if a trans guy redefines his terms so that he has a male body, regardless of how it's configured, he can do that. It might be confusing that he uses existing terminology, but we're talking about self-definition here. You found what works for you, and someone else has found what works for him. Someday I'll find what works for me. But it won't be the medical establishment's classic M/F scheme. It leaves out too many people, and it leaves out me.

Quote from: Elijah on February 24, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

Well I gotta say this certainly doesn't help my suicide thoughts and it actually makes them much worse. So I cannot mentally afford to think like this. If this is the case why bother trying to transition at all, I could just jump off a cliff because what's the point? I'll never be a true male anyways, no matter how many hormones they stab into me and no matter how much surgery I get, chest reconstruction, making my lower parts so that I am able to pee standing. Sorry, this did trigger me.

Then why do you have to say it in a "sad but true" way, if chromosomes don't matter?

I wonder why I like browsing the FtM section more than the MtF section...it's the same in my group talks with the support group, where some of the women seem so obsessed with looking like their own personal Barbie and most hate their genitalia with such a passion  that I sometimes feel left out : I have a pee-pee, I dont fantasize about penetrative sex with it and its often in the way of how I perceive things, but it's not the most important thing in my womanhood at all. My social interaction with others ( mainly women) is more important

Like most of you, I don't like the results of SRS, even if it tends to fare better for MtFs...I am terrified it would look off and 'feel' off for myself and a partner, gah :\

Time will tell but guys.. not every cismale measures their manhood with their dicks so that might be somewhat of an out of place comfort thought

Vivien

Quote from: YinYanga on February 27, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
I wonder why I like browsing the FtM section more than the MtF section...it's the same in my group talks with the support group, where some of the women seem so obsessed with looking like their own personal Barbie and most hate their genitalia with such a passion  that I sometimes feel left out : I have a pee-pee, I dont fantasize about penetrative sex with it and its often in the way of how I perceive things, but it's not the most important thing in my womanhood at all. My social interaction with others ( mainly women) is more important

Like most of you, I don't like the results of SRS, even if it tends to fare better for MtFs...I am terrified it would look off and 'feel' off for myself and a partner, gah :\

Time will tell but guys.. not every cismale measures their manhood with their dicks so that might be somewhat of an out of place comfort thought

Vivien

I see what you're saying, it's not all about "down there". But I want bottom surgery very badly, so I can go into a men's room and pee standing, so I can in a way be no different from cis males. I just want the surgery for myself, I'm not saying other people have to feel the same, but that's what I personally want when (if) I ever transition.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 27, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
I see what you're saying, it's not all about "down there". But I want bottom surgery very badly, so I can go into a men's room and pee standing, so I can in a way be no different from cis males. I just want the surgery for myself, I'm not saying other people have to feel the same, but that's what I personally want when (if) I ever transition.

And that's perfectly fine hun

(I had it easier in that way...I never pee'd while standing, always sat because I deemed it too messy and masculine lol)

I was so caught up in debating other people that I forgot to answer the original question. Answer is no, we don't all hate it (clearly) but I do more than anything in existence. I can't wait to get surgery and leave ->-bleeped-<- **** behind!!

I know that the fact I am male doesn't make my <insert word for female genitals which I won't type> a male organ.

Thanks for getting us back on track, Poptart. I think I was taking us far afield.

Well there's not question that i would have rather have been born with a dick, but I guess I don't really mind having female parts. I try to forget about it. Like others have said, outta sight outta mind.

Quote from: Logan Erik on February 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
........................ I'm not saying 'sad but true' anything.  I'm saying I don't give a damn.  I really mean it.  I don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about chromosomes.  I don't think other people should, either.  I'm not taking a side in the debate, I am condemning the debate itself.

Worrying about something like never being as 'fully male' as a cis male because you can't change your chromosomes is silly.  If you're going to feel bad about something, at least make it something practical and relevant that you can work on fixing in order to make your life better.  Like dysphoria or bad relationships or feeling stuck as you are, which are very common everyday issues for us folks.  Yes, it's painful and sometimes terrible, and sometimes there is very little you can do at the moment, but adding on something like the 'degrees of maleness' quandary isn't necessary and certainly isn't going to help you.

You sound kind of sour, like you've been having a rough go of it lately.  I'm sorry for that.  I hope you feel better.  Please don't hurt yourself.

Please note that although this post is more frank than is usual for me, I don't mean to be rude or condescending, only to clearly state my case.

Once again, if you wish, just tell me to stuff it and go away.

Alright fine then. I just don't like being told "I'll never". Like "I'll never be able to change my female chromosomes." or "I'll never be able to move out". Okay bad example two totally different things but still. Actually I was never even thinking about the female chromosomes until now, I just thought "okay, hormones + surgery = male" that's all I was focused on.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 28, 2012, 04:34:55 PM
Alright fine then. I just don't like being told "I'll never". Like "I'll never be able to change my female chromosomes." or "I'll never be able to move out". Okay bad example two totally different things but still. Actually I was never even thinking about the female chromosomes until now, I just thought "okay, hormones + surgery = male" that's all I was focused on.

I thought it was a bit like that too ...until I noticed some people ( generally straight cismen) think that if you are born with certain chromosomes you'll never ever be the gender you want to transition to. I am sure that if science finds a way to change that they will probably come up with something like "Well you lived a certain way and have memories so you don't experience everything" or the thought you were something 'else' just makes them dismiss you

A lot of my negative thoughts about gender come from the internet, whether I read them or it was someone who said something to me. I know it doesnt 'feel ' that way but it does make me feel down and I am very sensitive to those things ( One of the reasons I am not sure I'll ever transition well, because of my unsecurity)

Ps: I hope I dont sound misandric but I value men / masculinity, it's just very easy for me to get frustrated with certain behaviour of , mostly, straight boys/men. Jee, I probably have been more masculine than my whole life the last few years: the closer I get to transition to the female body I want the more open or confronted I am by it, it's scary and weird to me ...a bit like discovering little details on your favourite painting you had for so long

i hate everything that looks female on my body. and the day that i get it all removed and fixed to the way it should have been at birth, will be the best day of my life.

I don't hate my genitalia; I just dislike them. Hatred isn't a word I really want to use for something that did nothing wrong, and that doesn't make me fly with seething rage. All I really do is frown a little, but then try to move on to something else. Also, I tend to detach myself from my body. I like to think of myself as a brain in a poorly picked suitcase that I don't like, but can deal and live with if need be...if that makes sense.