I am starting to think for MtF TS just starting to transition, I have an odd set of expectations.  I think they are realistic expectations, just not very typical of most TS.

I have no desire to be beautiful, desirable or sexy.  I know that may change with HRT, but I don't think it will. 

I want to pass as female, without question.  But the way I want to pass seems very different.  If I am perceived as frumpy or bookish, that is fine with me.  In fact I want to come off as a bookish female, in the long term that is my goal, largely because that is my own self perception.  I feel that this is something that for the most part can be easily achieved.  I think it is a view of femininity that is perfectly valid, though rarely mentioned.  Most people think its somewhat sad, but honestly, nothing would make me happier than being the spinster who lives with books and a cat. 

I feel a bit strange because I sometimes see statements by other TS that I could not relate to regarding self image and beauty, sometimes acting like that is what everybody wants.  But the truth is, it is not what I want, even as self conscious as I am.  I also know more than enough GG (which make up most of my close friends), who do not desire beauty, they rather be cute, or personally do not care.  My personal image of my femininity and my image of myself as a female, is not one of beauty, honestly I could care less about that.  I think femininity and being female is so much more than that and has extensive degree of variation. 

I want to be female so deeply and feel so trapped right now, but in many ways I feel that I am very atypical for somebody who is TS.   My expectations and what I desire seem somewhat unusual, but they seem achievable.  They do not seem like such a huge leap. (Though I will be honest, right now I feel stuck at the bottom of a mountain that I need to climb and it seems impossibly high). 

I mean how many TS say that there own personal image of themselves is the local librarian lady?  But that is who I feel I am, and should have always been. (I am even seriously contemplating getting my MLS, but I am already in the research field).

Quote from: Amy T. on April 07, 2007, 12:27:41 PM


I mean how many TS say that there own personal image of themselves is the local librarian lady? 

isn't this the point of transition?  to be a "regular/normal" woman, to blend in society as the woman you've always been without giving cause to raise any eye brows or be ridiculed for being a ludicrous imitation of pamela anderson?

Quote from: Katia on April 07, 2007, 12:43:30 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on April 07, 2007, 12:27:41 PM


I mean how many TS say that there own personal image of themselves is the local librarian lady? 

isn't this the point of transition?  to be a "regular/normal" woman, to blend in society as the woman you've always been without giving cause to raise any eye brows or be ridiculed for being a ludicrous imitation of pamela anderson?

Very good point.  But sometimes I read things from people here, who I have seen there pictures and I ask why is that even necessary for you?  People who want to dump tens of thousands of dollars into largely unnecessary surgeries.  For example, while FFS surgery may be necessary to some to pass, some who consider it and actually go through do not need it at all and looked great even before the surgery.  They looked female before, but looked somewhat artificial after the surgery.  Even more so for breast augmentation, because it is honestly not necessary to pass, and breast development takes years.  (I am sorry to upset or insult the advocates of both, but there is a degree of truth to what I am saying).

I am wondering if this is because a degree of social isolation that results in a lack of societal and cultural perspective (basically knowing other people who are not TS).  Or is it a fear of any degree of ambiguity, even when that degree is not dangerous nor reveals ones past.  (More or less, there is something strange with that person but I cannot put my finger on it ambiguity.)  It seems like it results in some TS wasting money unnecessarily when they are viewed by society as female.  Some want something more than just being perceived as female by society at large, there seems to be a lacking of self acceptance on some level even when that is the case.  Or maybe a lack of perspective.  They view things in the most ideal physical fashion, when in reality it is something that goes beyond that and is multi-layered.

You know what? I feel the exact same way that you do, Amy. I am always joking about what a geek I am and how frumpy I would look as far as my fashion sense goes.  Honestly, I can not understand why some people are so hung up on the whole "I want to transistion to feel sexy" and all that jazz. Now, I know that not everyone feels that way, but I have heard some people say it and it just strikes me as odd. Like they want to transistion simply to "dress sexy". In my opinion that would be a good way to call attention to yourself and get clocked. But, anyways, you are not alone in your opinion, Amy, and honestly, I think that your view on it is pretty cool. (geekiness being considered as something that is cool, who would have thought of that?  )

lol, ya, next time you see my avatar photo, i'll have bleach blonde hair, a lacy top, 5 inch pumps, an exaggerated voluptuous figure, and let's not forget the white abercrombie & hollister shorts... > 

Very funny. 

Like I said, that is not the extreme I am talking about necessarily.  But it would be pretty funny nonetheless.

The purpose of transition IMO, is to fulfill the lifelong dream of being and being accepted as what we are meant to be, women.

What happens with many of us, myself included, is that we start out with the aspiration to simply be a woman..... willing to sacrifice good looks, tons of dates etc.  just for the chance to be.  It doesn't matter if we are attractive or not, as long as we are women.  Then, the estrogen kicks in, and we begin to develop and spend our daily lives as women.  And guess what?  We really become full fledged women, complete with vanity, envy, catiness and yes, a desire to be beautiful.

It will happen,  so be prepared.  But always remember,  the goal is to assimilate as a woman.  Being an attractive woman is secondary.

IMHO

Pam

In a way, I can say yes. I see where you're going. And I do think that it is fueling our society in subconscious ways, so that we often have wacked-out standards of beauty, including women getting super-sized breast implants and all that.  Unfortunatley we don't live in playboy bunny land. 

Hmmmmmmm.......

When I first started transition I never thought Id pass let alone look sexy... I generaly go for cute though. Origonaly I thought Id need massive amounts of expensive surgery... Now I wonder what I was thinking... I could do the frumpy thing or the hypersexy thing... but I dont see the point. I dress how I like, usualy in a teeshirt and jeans... sometimes a halter and jeans... I look killer in a skirt or little black dress but thats impractical most of the time...  This is summer country where sleves and high collars make for an extreemly uncomfortable day LoL....  I wanted all that stuff in the past... but now all I have to say is "Hey!! Look at me!!"  why?  because noone notices whats right infront of them...thee allways looking for the something thats out of place... and Id rather blind them to the forrest by useing trees.    >

Quote from: Feral Cat on April 07, 2007, 02:42:16 PM
The purpose of transition IMO, is to fulfill the lifelong dream of being and being accepted as what we are meant to be, women.

What happens with many of us, myself included, is that we start out with the aspiration to simply be a woman..... willing to sacrifice good looks, tons of dates etc.  just for the chance to be.  It doesn't matter if we are attractive or not, as long as we are women.  Then, the estrogen kicks in, and we begin to develop and spend our daily lives as women.  And guess what?  We really become full fledged women, complete with vanity, envy, catiness and yes, a desire to be beautiful.

It will happen,  so be prepared.  But always remember,  the goal is to assimilate as a woman.  Being an attractive woman is secondary.

IMHO

Pam

The thing is not all full fledge women have the desire to be beautiful, again this strikes directly at what I am saying, there is assumption there in those words about who I will become and an assumption regarding females in general that is that you are putting forth as a universal, when it is far from universal.  Some rather be cute, some simply do not care.  I think that vanity is part of ones personality, but also something that is socialized.  I think it has more to do with some degree  of impressionability, and in some ways a direct result of the patriarchy.  I doubt I will fall for this trap.  I have a background in gender studies, and I am a feminist (yes you can be a feminist and transsexual at the same time).  Even with HRT, I doubt my intellectual and philosophical background will just fade away, in fact much of it would probably just be reinforced.  Most of my friends are feminist women (contrary to popular belief feminists do not have a problem with TS women), they by in large avoid this societal trap you are mentioning.  I am critical largely because it is internalizing standards of beauty that are imposed by the patriarchy.  I do think TS tend to be a bit more likely to do this than GG, because of years of repression and who  they simply are they tend to be even more self conscious and critical of their physical appearance, and less likely to have a positive voice saying that it probably is not necessary.  The only subculture that they do often belong to is being TS, where the idea may be reinforced.  I don't think it is purely because of HRT, it is something that is acculturated and maybe enhanced by HRT.  Some things do change with HRT, but my views which come from years philosophical and intellectual development that have made me an activist and feminist will not change. 

Honestly the goal should never to be beautiful, even as a secondary goal.  The goals should be self acceptance and to assimilate with other women.  I could list dozens of other goals that should be more important than the idea of beauty.  Like I said before the idea of beauty paints a very narrow version of femininity that I do not necessarily subscribe to, and I don't think it will change with HRT.  I doubt I will quit being a radical feminist because my body chemistry and my body will match my mind, in fact my views will probably just get reinforced. 

Like I said, I do not even have the DESIRE to look sexy or beautiful, and probably never will.  I want to be perceived as an intelligent and resourceful female first and foremost.

There are things I'm vain about sure, but mostly I'd say I'd agree.

I'm a punkish tomboy boarder/skater-girl and it just doesn't feel right by my style to go for ultrasex in my look. I don't need gigantic breasts to feel feminine or to wear the slinky black dress and super high heels.

I fuss with my hair a lot sure, but my hair is really pretty and its about all I really obsess over. I'm really happy with cute, and frumpy, and occasionally really cute.

Most of the surgeries (based on what friends and loved ones in the know have said, including my Tay) are probably unnecessary.


And honestly Amy, I think there are so many different forms of beautiful, and to many the local librarian lady is sexy (one of my ex girlfriends was quite the cute nerd in glasses bookworm).

I certainly enjoy cute geeky girls too (I probably fit that even better then I do boarder punk) and often find myself less attracted to the stereotypical versions of beauty.

So while you may not have the desire to be sexy or beautiful, you definately are sexy and beautiful, to someone at least.


All women are.

At least, that's the way I look at it. We're all beautiful. No ifs ands or buts.

 

Quote from: Sophia on April 09, 2007, 01:21:59 AM
There are things I'm vain about sure, but mostly I'd say I'd agree.

I'm a punkish tomboy boarder/skater-girl and it just doesn't feel right by my style to go for ultrasex in my look. I don't need gigantic breasts to feel feminine or to wear the slinky black dress and super high heels.

I fuss with my hair a lot sure, but my hair is really pretty and its about all I really obsess over. I'm really happy with cute, and frumpy, and occasionally really cute.

Most of the surgeries (based on what friends and loved ones in the know have said, including my Tay) are probably unnecessary.


And honestly Amy, I think there are so many different forms of beautiful, and to many the local librarian lady is sexy (one of my ex girlfriends was quite the cute nerd in glasses bookworm).

I certainly enjoy cute geeky girls too (I probably fit that even better then I do boarder punk) and often find myself less attracted to the stereotypical versions of beauty.

So while you may not have the desire to be sexy or beautiful, you definately are sexy and beautiful, to someone at least.


All women are.

At least, that's the way I look at it. We're all beautiful. No ifs ands or buts.

 

You are very enlightened, but just the way you are talking, you also seem pretty young.  You seem like you transitioned or are transitioning while part of a subculture. Which is unusual for TS women. 

Okay my hair...sole source of frustration outside of the physical body.  Extremely fussy, extremely frustrating.  While I look kind of androgynous now with the way its cut, it could be so much better, but I don't think it really will be without significant investment.  It has thinned out too much.  I know this may or may not change with HRT, but this is the one thing I think I will probably have to drop several thousand on in addition to SRS (it is literally the only thing I could think of, plus it does play a huge part in passing). Okay maybe I am more vain then I give myself credit for.    I miss my thick long hair I had until I was 21 (I got miss'd so much back then and I was not even transitioning, it was just part of my life).   I still want to look cute to some extent, and I think the only thing holding me back is my hair.   My problem is that I am just way too twee for my own good.

I find it funny because you seem to be one of the very few on these boards who has any type of subcultural perspective.  I have been noticing it is uncommon for TS women, if not downright rare.  It seems to be they often shy away from any artistic/cultural subculture at any point in thier life, maybe out of fear, maybe having a hard time relating to it, or maybe because they hide in an ultra-masculine disguise until they crack.  I come from the twee community (DIY craft fairs, indie-pop music), it is a large part of my identity, probably more so then the gender identity strangely enough.  The twee community is very geeky, and very girly (even the boys), I was drawn to it for this reason.  Cute is a way of life, and it has nothing to do with physical beauty, but rather self perception which does actually exhibit itself in ones presentation.  I have met several GG who have more masculine features than me pull off cute with ease in this community.  The thing is anybody can be cute in this community, it has almost nothing to do with good looks.

Plus the community is extremely liberal and highly accepting. 
The other thing is most of the people in this community are often very bookish.  Being myopic is like a badge of honor.  Cardigans and cords are long established trend (I have had conversations that lasted a couple of hours on the origins of twee fashion).  I ask myself was I drawn to this community because it reflected everything I liked about myself, or has the community shaped my self image (I think its a little bit of both).  The truth is, I am glad I am part of this subculture.  People are accepting and open minded.    The thing is the community is literally the subcultural community of young (meaning under 35, though some of the founders are in thier forties now) crafters, librarians, artists, researchers, academics, feminists, and musicians.  The thing is unlike many communities that were founded on music, the twee community tends to mostly be made up of women. 

I think much of my own self perception comes from being a part of this community and being comfortable with it.  In addition everybody is indoctrinated with the sense of fashion that is a big part of the community.  I am not lying when I am saying I am transitioning as a female into the subculture I was already a part of, and there is not as big a leap in the subculture, as there is going to be within the regular culture I also have to live with.  At least I know I will have plenty of friends, even if society in general has problems with who I am.  Of course it is a small community, so there will always be somebody who knows. But I see no reason to abandon a big part of who I am as a person and the community views TS are extremely enlighted, they are very well educated on gender identity issues.  I am not about to quit going to shows for K Records Bands and attend the Renegade Craft Fair just because of who I am.  It was my feminine side that guided me to be twee to begin with, being twee helped me get through life before I could transition, and now it is a very big part of who I am. 

The thing is I have been heavily indoctrinated into this subculture, and this is where many of my views kind of come from.  Believe it or not the twee pop subculture has a very close relationship to the Riot Grrl subculture.  In fact in many ways they are often one in the same.  This is probably why, along with my education, I have developed such strong views (well there are other reasons too). 

I'm not very used to being called enlightened. Makes me blush a little.



I suppose I could be considered young, I'm only 22 years old, but I actually haven't started the transition process yet (HRT or any of that).

Unfortunately I'm very very closeted, especially from my family as well as being very busy with a difficult major at my university. So I've been stalled out in getting the ball rolling. I hope to transition soon because now that I've more or less managed to beat my own self doubt and denial I frankly can't stand being treated the way I am now and being seen the way people see me currently.

You do seem right about the majority of TS women though, I haven't seen many that identify with a musical or style based subculture. Of course I've been pretty isolated from my brethren and so I can't really see my experiences as the norm. I bet there's a good number out there that are like us, and have a specific subcultural style. I guess us subculture people are just sneaky.



And the twee community sounds like a lot of fun. I'm not overly familiar with it so it may not have a strong presence in my area, but that subculture definately sounds like one I could relate to.

I need to get someone to take a pic when Im all punked out then 
Pink and red hair, and what ever else I feel like wearing and my doc martins  >

Hippie nerds are cute and so are unusual colors of hair.

Hehe, I think nearly every girl I've ever dated has had their hair dyed some interesting color.

Quote from: Sophia on April 09, 2007, 07:52:42 PM
I'm not very used to being called enlightened. Makes me blush a little.



I suppose I could be considered young, I'm only 22 years old, but I actually haven't started the transition process yet (HRT or any of that).

Unfortunately I'm very very closeted, especially from my family as well as being very busy with a difficult major at my university. So I've been stalled out in getting the ball rolling. I hope to transition soon because now that I've more or less managed to beat my own self doubt and denial I frankly can't stand being treated the way I am now and being seen the way people see me currently.

You do seem right about the majority of TS women though, I haven't seen many that identify with a musical or style based subculture. Of course I've been pretty isolated from my brethren and so I can't really see my experiences as the norm. I bet there's a good number out there that are like us, and have a specific subcultural style. I guess us subculture people are just sneaky.



And the twee community sounds like a lot of fun. I'm not overly familiar with it so it may not have a strong presence in my area, but that subculture definately sounds like one I could relate to.

Finish school then work for a company or in a state that is TS friendly.  I know what it is like to closet gender identity issues.  I was a little more expressive than most, but I still had them, and they still had an effect on me. 

The twee culture is pretty much located in some form in most college campuses and major cities in the northeast, midwest and west coast.  In some places to a greater extent than others.  It also exists in Austin, TX, Chapel Hill, and Athens, GA.

It is a small culture though outside of major cities though.  We tend to be very urban.

Oh it also exists in the UK, but it is slightly different there. 

Quote from: Amy T. on April 09, 2007, 09:41:37 PM
Finish school then work for a company or in a state that is TS friendly.  I know what it is like to closet gender identity issues.  I was a little more expressive than most, but I still had them, and they still had an effect on me. 

The twee culture is pretty much located in some form in most college campuses and major cities in the northeast, midwest and west coast.  In some places to a greater extent than others.  It also exists in Austin, TX, Chapel Hill, and Athens, GA.

It is a small culture though outside of major cities though.  We tend to be very urban.

Oh it also exists in the UK, but it is slightly different there. 

Yeah I hope to track down a spot that won't be all bigoted against me.

huh, I probably have hung out with twee people then, and just not recognized the name for the subculture.

This reply is kind of cheating, in that part is an edit from a longer-ago post or reply, but I think it applies well here.

'I won't say what, if any of these 'beauty' categories I fit into.  I'm happy that we have all found the courage to spend the rest of our lives comfortable within our own skins, and feel it's sufficient to be satisfied with that.  Before transition, weren't most of us just desperate to match our outside with our inside?'

Anyway, that's me, now with my outside matching my inside. 

I get lost in a crowd

Finally me,

Bev

I won't be the one to suggest you have to fit into a particular box; transition is a very personal process. Just be yourself

Jane