Quote from: Renee D on March 13, 2012, 11:46:51 PM
Well darn, we'd all better go back to our original male selves then as to society in general, a female is a person born that way with the whole xx chromosome thing going on. The whole "obligation" bit is just silly. Its up to the individual on how they wish to be perceived by others. They don't have to conform unless they wish to. If that were the case, we'd better set all those butch lesbians straight and femmy dudes too. And hey. while we're at it, that whole homosexual thing is a bit dodgy on conforming to society's standards of what a relationship and sex is about too, isn't it?
Butch Lesbians and flamboyant gay men are now largely acceptable standards. If you read what I wrote previously, I already covered that. What is not considered as an "acceptable standard" by our society is a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression.
The gay community fought for decades to get where they are at now, it didn't happen overnight. Yes these things can change, and they should, but it takes time. One cannot blindly assume that society will automatically change overnight.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMTransitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state. While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either. I hope other people feel the same way. It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.
Very very well put. I don't live in a constant fear. I worked hard on my appearance and on my voice. I walk around with a true confidence and no one challenges that I am female. I am just stating that it's foolish to unnecessarily put oneself in harm's way, when it can be avoided with a bit of work. I've even offered to help people with it.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMLiving and being perceived as a woman is not so narrow as I feel you're defining it. I get what you're driving at, and agree to a certain extent, but also feel that there are as many grey areas here as there are individuals and their reasons for going through this process.
I agree. Different strokes for different folks. But the more "grey area" that people abide in, the more potential danger they could be in. Again, I feel that this can be avoided.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMThe only absolute "obligations" I have involve taxes and mortality. You're playing fairly loose with semantics while making some pretty blunt strokes with a one-size-fits-all brush. There are so many potential mitigating factors, unique to each individual, that have the potential to fly in the face of your absolutes it is stunning.
I never meant to come across as though I believe "one-size-fits-all". I certainly understand completely that there are individual circumstances. I see it this way; we all transition to be our happy, true selves. I personally hated ever being identified as male, so I worked hard so that would NEVER happen again. I figure most transwomen on this site (excluding the more genderqueer folk) feel the same way. If your voice causes you to be identified as male why wouldn't you want to change it? If you don't mind being identified as male, well then I feel something is wrong. You may be genderqueer. Someone who truly identifies as being female should not want to be identified as male for any reason.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMThe world does have to deal with it, at least my corner of the world while I am in it. On my terms as well as their own. How each of us carries ourselves before, during and always is going to be tailored and tempered by where, who and what we are and will absolutely evolve as our experience grows, changes and moves forward.
"Your problem"..."their society".....as if by default, the two are mutually exclusive and we are no longer a part of that same society. By implying that we are not somehow still included in society, that by seeking reconciliation between our inner and outer selves, we've abandoned our rights of inclusion? That is just as bigoted as anything crafted and intentionally aimed to make someone feel "less-than" for walking this path.
Again, I apologize if that is how I came across. I certainly believe that we should have the same rights and inclusion as everyone else. Like it or not though, the world considers us, in many cases, to be unsavory. I believe that things can change, but in a safer, less "loud and proud" approach. "Loud and Proud" works for gay rights, but as you stated previously one size does not fit all. I believe that the best way we can initiate any kind of change is from the inside, more-or-less covertly. We're smart people, I'd even say we're smarter than average, we don't need to resort to "Loud and Proud".
I agree that certain changes NEED to happen. But maybe we should reevaluate what needs to change. The female voice, pitch, timbre, resonance; these are things largely out of their control. It's not societal gender-role that woman have higher, less resonant voices. Sure you can talk like a butch lesbian and pull off being female, I applaud you if you do, and that's fantastic. You would still be falling in the range of what is largely accepted to be "female".
But a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression is simply awkward in the best of situations. Why is it awkward? Because, genetic cis-women do not naturally possess the ability to do so.
I don't say these things to come across as mean. I apologize, sincerely if I sound that way. I do it out of concern. I hate the thought of any of us being hurt, be it mentally or physically, because of our unfortunate circumstances. It is out of genuine concern that I adamantly insist on trying to blend with society.
