Might I ask a comment of you please?

Kate mentioned something,

Quote from: Kate on April 04, 2007, 11:21:50 AM
Then came The Baptist. He's treats me fine, but yes - I am quite damned. He actually made me cry though, and it had nothing to do with TSism. We got into our usual religious discussion, with unsaved people being damned and left behind and all sorts of pretty things... then he commented on how animals were put here by god for us to kill, that they have NO feelings, NO emotions, and NO SOUL...

, that I simply can not understand.

Even being raised with those thoughts, and having them driven in as acceptable... How can someone be SO blind? Surly you need just watch 'animals' for a short time to see the life... Someone please tell me not all are like this?


^{*sighs and tries not to cry*}

I think humans just have an amazing capacity to blind themselves to reality.  A defense mechanism, perhaps, but one that ultimately costs more than it saves.

And many people use religion and the bible as tools to aid in their self-inflicted blindness.  The Bible doesn't mention animal's souls so, of course they don't have one, these people apparently think.  They never consider that spark of the Deity that makes animals, as well as humans, alive.

But some people, really, just don't feel things the way most others do.  It's like their wiring has gotten crossed wrong somewhere.  Go figure!??!

confused too
helen

I've always been of the opinion that it's human nature to find an excuse for bad behavior. Fortunately, some people have learned to rise above that need for vindication, but it's clear that many do not. In the case of this individual, it's obvious that he'd rather remove himself from any responsibility of compassion or understanding than address it head-on.

And as far as animals go... that's kind of tragic. Sure, most animals can't communicate, but it's clear to me that even pets have a certain amount of personality. My cats make sure I know that all the time. But it seems that some would rather convince themselves that animals are simply breathing soulless machines than a part of God's living creation that reflects His(her) beauty and love.

Oh well. Maybe I shouldn't write things like this while craving a steak.

Kimberly;
  The word of God does indeed say that man has been given dominion over the animals. It also says that Adam named each one. It does not say that we should torture them or just kill them for no reason.
  While they are not listed as having a soul maybe some would be wise to seek an oportunity to learn from their existance rather than use them for their own evil nature.
  I personally am not against hunting but I find it hard to justify hunting when the local IGA is a couple of blocks down the street.
  People could really learn some wonderful aspects from them such as being a provider when they feed a pet in a kennel that cannot feed itself. Preachers could learn to be diligent and faithful in that respect rather than with the flock they are supposed to be feeding rather than just throwing together a sermon five minutes before church.
  Pastors could learn a lot about being a shepherd in a sense from taking care of their pets. Shepherds were raised from their youth knowing each lamb but how many preachers today run supercenters of heresy where people are nothing more than a tithe and slip through the cracks without the preacher ever knowing they were there?
  An evangelist that cares for another person's pet  (like their children's) could learn about diligence with another preacher's flock when they have to feed and water a pet not their own. Maybe they would be less apt to say something that would destroy all that the pastor had worked for with his flock. Many have visited a church just to say things that would cause the pastor's people to leave.
  Whoever said we should just kill animals doesn't show much wisdom.
  There is more to having dominion over animals than just using them for target practice or some macho male ego trip.
  If they want to be a tough-guy by killing animals let them show how bad they are by going bear hunting with only a bowie-knife.
  But that's just my opinion.
  Tiff

"If the Father loves a sparrow as his Child, why would He not love you?"-Jesus of Nazarreth.

Quote from: Dryad on April 05, 2007, 09:12:38 AM
"If the Father loves a sparrow as his Child, why would He not love you?"-Jesus of Nazarreth.

Imagine that.


Thank you Dryad.

Quote from: Tiffany Elise on April 04, 2007, 11:26:12 PM
The word of God does indeed say that man has been given dominion over the animals.

Ah yes, the infamous Genesis 1:26. I keep forgetting about that.

Tis a shame everything in the Bible was not written by divine mandate...


Thank you for reminding me of that Tiffany.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 04, 2007, 10:31:39 PM
I've always been of the opinion that it's human nature to find an excuse for bad behavior.

Ah, so very true.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 04, 2007, 10:31:39 PM
Oh well. Maybe I shouldn't write things like this while craving a steak.

An that, I do believe, is why so much is the way it is.  If humanity just sat and realized that they were a predator, I think, perhaps, it might work better. Heartless, soulless animals are NOT, but neither should you be damned for living.


Thank you David.

Quote from: HelenW on April 04, 2007, 08:31:29 PM
I think humans just have an amazing capacity to blind themselves to reality.  A defense mechanism, perhaps, but one that ultimately costs more than it saves.

And many people use religion and the bible as tools to aid in their self-inflicted blindness.  The Bible doesn't mention animal's souls so, of course they don't have one, these people apparently think.  They never consider that spark of the Deity that makes animals, as well as humans, alive.

But some people, really, just don't feel things the way most others do.  It's like their wiring has gotten crossed wrong somewhere.  Go figure!??!

confused too
helen

Ah so very true. An indeed a defense mechanism it may be, but gah!


Thank you Helen.

I believe that every animal has equal standing in this world. If there is a god, there is a "soul" for every living thing.  I do eat meat.  But I waste none and eat it somewhat sparingly.  That animal gave its life for my nourishment.

My god is life itself. Life should be treasured and cared for. I give the same respect for life to my neighbor as to the hawk circling in the sky and the caterpillar that keeps wandering into my path in front of my house.  Life is precious. It is rare in the universe.  I do not take it for granted.

Cindi

Human beings have an overinflated opinion of the meaning of their lives. In the bigger picture, what we do and "achieve" during our transient existence here, is meaningless. The only value that you can add to your life is kindness, a sincere attitude of goodwill and forgiveness for we are all terribly flawed and selfish.

I've always believe animals have souls, but I do have trouble with the notion that insects do.  I see them more as biological machines that act in a preprogrammed way so that they are consistent with their behavior between themselves and an identical type of insect.  Take bees or ants for instance.  They consistently do the same thing and never vary between themselves for the particular role they were assigned, but animals such as cats and dogs are SO different from other cats and dogs.  Finding 2 that constistently act exactly alike would be a difficult feat indeed.  That's where I believe the soul comes into play.  It makes them each individual.

Regarding death of animals, I also believe they have a certain purpose to fullfill in life.  For instance, I have a pet snake and I need to feed it mice.  The mice I feed it's purpose si for nourishment of the snake.  Because the snake swallows it whole, there are no parts that are wasted.  The snake's purpose is to keep me company.  I don't feel bad about feeding it, because it would still need to be fed one way or another.

Melissa

God made humans to rule over animals.

God did not make humans to rule over other humans.

Some humans treat other humans as livestock.

...Incorrect some humans treat other humans worse than their livestock.

In spite of this there are many fine humans.

However I have known Zealots that condemned everyone and did not live model lives.

Hi Kimberly,

In the animal kingdom, which we are a part of, animals eat other animals and sometimes kill other animals to defend themselves from being eaten.What animals do not do, except us, is kill for the sake of killing. Killing to satisfy an urge to kill things.

I have never had this urge, so I don't really understand it. Killing or hurting anything makes me feel terrible.  I will not condemn those who kill for the sake of killing because I do not possess this urge. I can only say I don't understand it.

I don't beleive in souls, so I do not beleive animals possess them either. But they have definite personalities as we do. They have the capacity to love and to be loved. To be sad or happy and to be lonely or content. They are certainly not mindless.

Perhaps it is nothing more than a need to feel superior? I don't know. Like I said, I don't feel it, whatever it is.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Yvonne on April 05, 2007, 03:54:57 PM
Human beings have an overinflated opinion of the meaning of their lives. In the bigger picture, what we do and "achieve" during our transient existence here, is meaningless. The only value that you can add to your life is kindness, a sincere attitude of goodwill and forgiveness for we are all terribly flawed and selfish.

I agree with everything except the part that we are innately selfish.  I think most of us have the capacity for generosity, but many (due to socialization or other reasons) turn to greed and don't think about others. 

Personally, I have changed my views on life since I had tried to commit suicide before.  I no longer see myself as somebody who just belongs here on the planet and gets to lives as they wish until their body gives out, but rather as a soul who is visiting the planet for a length of time (human lifetime) and whose means of interaction with others is through this body I am in and while I am here I want to leave a positive impression on any lives so that I create positive energy while here.  I think people have a choice of either having a positive impact throughout their lives on others or a negative impact.  there seems to remain a balance of those 2 energies, which keeps a certain stabality within the earth and thus not much changes, but if there were to be more negative energy, the planet most likely would end up destroying itself and if there was more positive energy then life would improve.  Perhaps this isn't the most popular view, but it's how I see things.

Melissa

Eilzabeth: It's a bit hard to say, but..
Another species of animals, be it a humanoid species, has invented war. The chimpansee. We've found skeletons of prey killed with clubs, by humans, which leads us to believe the human species invented the club as a hunting tool. The sad part is: Chimps have invented the club aswell, and the crude idea of a spear, being a long stick broken so that it has a sharp end, but there have been no observations of them using it for hunting. The only thing they've been seen to do with it is: Seek out and kill other chimpansees, usually belonging to another tribe.

As for insects not having souls:
They've got no brains. They cannot think. Upon realizing this, I myself pondered on the nature of the soul, in correlation with thought.
From that I concluded that souls simply cannot exist; merely the capacity of thought. And thought needs a brain. Which creatures like insects do not have.

Quote from: Dryad on April 05, 2007, 06:19:46 PM
As for insects not having souls:
They've got no brains. They cannot think. Upon realizing this, I myself pondered on the nature of the soul, in correlation with thought.
From that I concluded that souls simply cannot exist; merely the capacity of thought. And thought needs a brain. Which creatures like insects do not have.

Physicists have speculated on many dimensions (some say 7).  Is not time another Dimension?  Some physicists speculate if you had built a mechanism to enter a worm hole back at the time of dinosaurs on earth then you could travel back to the time of dinosaurs through the wormhole.  This sounds like Star Trek or the Time Machine but it may be possible to do things in the future which we do not understand today.  Do living things have a spirit that exists outside of what we can see? 

I think yes.

Can a human have a brain that understands its mortality and a soul that lives after the body is gone?  I think yes.

Does a human have the right to determine if the soul is saved?  I think no.

Wendy

QuoteWhat animals do not do, except us, is kill for the sake of killing.

Cats do.

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on April 10, 2007, 12:49:31 PM

QuoteWhat animals do not do, except us, is kill for the sake of killing.

Cats do.

Jessica

And so do dogs.  In fact there are many animals that will toy (torture) another for pure entertainment.  I think that the analogy works better when you look at it from the other direction. We are animals attempting to become civilized. Natural animals protect their turf. And that is our warring instinct. We learn many behaviours that get piled on top of that, but I believe that our instinctive desires to protect our own space is at the root of it.

Cindi

We use animals in everything we do. For fun, food, and science. I do not believe they are equal to humans for the fact of our faculty of reason which allows us to know right and wrong whereas animals have no such faculty that approximates. Thus, no human can have obligations or virtues fulfilled by assumption of obligations to non-human non-rational animals.

Moreover, the person in question may not understand that we humans are also animals as well, thus to arbitrarily separate ourselves from other animals in regards to our animal properties [excluding faculty of reason] is a bit silly really. We feel pain, another animal can feel pain. This doesn't mean I'm giving moral obligation to an animal when I treat it well, I just simply recognize that cruelty to non-humans and humans are equally abhorent in a world fully of pain by default. Thus, it also follows despite lack of obligation toward non-human non-rational animals, that cruelty too is absurd and antithetical to life.

-- Brede

Well, I'll probably get things thrown at me, but I enjoy hunting, especially deer hunting.  I realize that some think it is murder.  So be it.  Our lease is carefully managed.  The animals there have a wonderful long life.  As many deer as can be reasonably supported by the land are left on it.  If the numbers were not controlled, some would starve.  It is done scientifically and with compassion.  Nobody is allowed to hunt unless they prove they can make a shot that will kill quickly and painlessly.  I have to eat low fat, and venison is very lean.  When I was a child, my family had a cattle operation.  We also had egg houses.  Those two, to me, are the most imhumane institutions I know.  Have you ever been to a meat packing plant?  UGGH!  Have you ever seen 20,000 chickens lined up in houses where their entire lives are spent in a 2x2 cage?  We all participate in those things, but call hunters cruel.

OK, I'll duck now........

Kristi

Why would you think people'd fall over that? Hunting is a human urge; we're a predatory species.
The tragedy of hunting doesn't lie in the kill of our prey; it lies in agriculture. Lifestock. We don't need to hunt to get our meals; we've got slaves we eat at our leasure.

No; I'd rather have a world in which we could simply hunt for our food, instead of relying on agriculture.
There's just this problem: If we go back, now, the lifestock would soon be extinct, wildlife would follow, and in no time at all, so would humans... There'd be less than a tenth of the current population alive...

And let's be honoust, here. A world without agriculture wouldn't have all the benefits we have. Oh, we'd have surgery, sure. Medicine, too. But a lot less than we do, now. We wouldn't have computers, either. And there surely wouldn't be hormone-treatments and restruction surgery available.
So all in all: On slavery, we've thrived.

Now; I am against hunting. Because with our slaves, we don't need to hunt. If deer would starve.. Shame. But that would offer chances for other animals, aswell. Wolves, for example. cougars, too. Lynxes. And then they can hunt. And the number of deer would decrease. So then they'd die of hunger. And all that would go on, untill a balance is reached.
Why not offer the opportunity of this balance? I know it's not very friendly, but if we wish to reserve nature, we really ought to let it run it's course. And with our lifestock, we don't need to be predators, so we don't belong on the list, anymore.
Too bad.

Quote from: Kimberly on April 04, 2007, 06:09:52 PM
Might I ask a comment of you please?

Kate mentioned something,

Quote from: Kate on April 04, 2007, 11:21:50 AM
Then came The Baptist. He's treats me fine, but yes - I am quite damned. He actually made me cry though, and it had nothing to do with TSism. We got into our usual religious discussion, with unsaved people being damned and left behind and all sorts of pretty things... then he commented on how animals were put here by god for us to kill, that they have NO feelings, NO emotions, and NO SOUL...

, that I simply can not understand.

Even being raised with those thoughts, and having them driven in as acceptable... How can someone be SO blind? Surly you need just watch 'animals' for a short time to see the life... Someone please tell me not all are like this?


^{*sighs and tries not to cry*}

My sweet sister, I can offer at least a partial explanation.

"Some people would rather die than think. In fact, many do." - Bertrand Russell

While love cries out for it, love and righteousness, people would rather defer to their 'gut feelings' than take the time and make the effort to properly research and analyze a given situation, even when a 'loved' (??) one is affected.

That did not emanate from God,

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment,..." - Philippians 1:9

God in fact, demands it.

Love demands it and it is pitiful and speaks volumes about character, that the effort is not made to try to understand.

"Intellectual laziness"

This harmonizes more with the quote from Bertrand Russell. And as a thinking woman, I find this intellectually abysmal and utterly appalling.

"Just indiscriminately lump it all together for convenience' sake and execute a blanket condemnation."

And that is what angers me so much about my brethren in the church. But I know that God is not the author of such and knowing this, notwithstanding the fact that my own faith is being quite challenged by the ostensible inequity of a much loved one suffering collaterally with me through all of this, I have no doubts about God.

It is man who chooses by mere emotive default, to make life hellish for us.

Discernment must be made here.