Ok, so with introductions out of the way, I would like to ask some questions to the members of this community. Perhaps I should wait a little longer before posting my own topic, but these questions have been on my mind for months.

A brief disclaimer: I understand that "YMMV" and that genetics and seemingly fate have a lot to do with the final outcome. I think I am looking for personal experiences as well as a more general "is it possible" kind of thing rather than "is this what will happen". I also realize that answers to my questions may lay in various other threads, but my scouring has so far only given me partial answers. One last note before I proceed to my questions - I consider myself an androgyne and do not desire to completely transition. I am a biological male who identifies more with the female gender but do not want to completely abandon my male side. As such, I want to add some "femaleness" to both my mind and body.

So, my questions are concerning HRT. My hopes at this point are to begin a low-level (not full transitional level) regimen of HRT after meeting with a gender therapist. Seeing as how I have no particular aversion to my genitalia and my wife and I have a great sex life, would I be able to maintain use of my penis while on HRT? Has anyone gone down this road before? Also, my wife and I are considering another child which we would hope to accomplish prior to beginning HRT - but would a low dose mean certain sterility? If we manage to get pregnant before HRT, I would consider this more of a bonus than anything, but does that mean my wife wouldn't need to be on the pill anymore or should we still be concerned about accidental pregnancies?

My next question concerns breast growth. I've seen a lot of personal accounts from people that are a year or less into HRT and I know development doesn't stop at that point. I plan on continuing to work in male mode and I'm concerned that if I end up with a C-cup, that could be a little tricky. If I take genetics into account, my mother's side has women who are all a little larger overall and so naturally have larger breasts. My father's side has woman that are more my size overall (I'm skinny) and are pretty small breasted. I think that means I can expect to be smaller, but I would just like to hear what other people's experiences are. Maybe even some biological females could chime in to help me overcome my fears by telling me how they hide theirs.

Last question (sorry for another long post). What effects of HRT were noticed first? I think this is going to be a very subjective question but I am more interested in psychological changes and view the physical changes as a bonus. Did you start to feel different inside before noticing any physical effects? How would you describe those feelings? I think I've read where some people know right away that HRT is not right for them while others know right away that it absolutely is right for them. I've also read about people feeling a sense of calm, a more even tempered personality and just an overall better outlook on life. Is this how you would describe your experiences?

Sorry, I'm going to throw one more question out there. Discovering that I am an androgyne has already given me a lot of comfort, but I feel the need to actually "do" something about it. Just knowing in my mind isn't enough. If HRT isn't right for me, what kind of changes have you made in your lives to feel more congruent with what's in your mind?

Thank you all again for providing such a caring, open place with lots of knowledge to share.

I think hormones could be a dangerous path for you.  It doesn't really sound like your ready for the effects of female hormones.

No one can promise you that you will maintain erections after being on hormones for a length of time.  No one can promise you what size your breasts will grow to.  No one can promise you that you will not become sterile.

These are all things that can/will happen on estrogen.  If both you and your wife are not on board with that, I would wait.

I am bigender, but I started out thinking that I was an androgyne (and they continue to let me hang around here LOL....). I'm also on a low dose HRT regimen. I want to share my experiences so that you know what you will be potentially be facing if you go this route.

My dysphoria in girl mode was driving me crazy - there is a member here that described it as a noise in her head that she could not escape, and i had the same noise as well as repetitive, incessant thoughts about girl stuff. It was GID, and it was driving me insane. Since i'm bigender the feelings switched on and off at random times as i flipped between boy mode and girl mode.

I felt results within 2-3 weeks of starting HRT. The noise and incessant thoughts stopped dead cold. The physical changes started within a few months, and they were the classic ones - fat redistribution, small boobs, etc. Those were the side effects i was willing to accept in order to get the sense of calmness that i was missing, and being bigender i didn't really mind them. And i am far more emotional now - for example, there are TV shows and movies that i simply can't watch without tearing up. The uncontrollable flip flopping between boy and girl mode became something that i have some control over now, which is nice.

The ability to father children - i've had mine and i'm past that now LOL..... but the equipment still works, sorta. It's hard to start and often stalls out. It's also become a zero emissions device if you follow my drift. That happened within 8 months. I have to warm it up now for quite a while before i hit the road. The feeling that i get is also the one described by many - a full on body experience and not just a localized sensation.

I've been told that HRT can either have the calming effect that it had on me, or it might be the thing that triggers a high speed toboggan ride toward transition, so that's something you might consider.

I like that you plan to talk with a therapist to help you sort this out.

Melanie - Sarah Louise is right.  Hormones, especially estrogen for the MtF, MtA, or AtF, are a big step, especially for a young androgyne in a hetrosexual, child-bearing relationship.  You can't always predict the exact effects they are going to have.

And you are gong to find it very difficult, as I have, to locate a medical/psychological team that endorses low-dose HRT for the androgyne.

There are plenty of ways to feminize your male self, short of using estrogens (of any dose).  You will come across these on the boards from time to time, and in the archived threads.

If you do go the hormone (and/or hormone-blocker route), you will need to seriously consider sperm banking.  HRT can leave you irreversibly sterile in a few short months.  It may also leave you impotent.

With that said, you wanted some real life experience.  I am a male-bodied, bigendered, bisexual, androgyne, with "persistant pubertal gynecomastia" (meaning I have had moobs since I was a young teen and that my natural hormone levels were not in the normal male range).  Last year, I started seeing a "family therapist" locally, because there are no true gender therapists near me.  She wasn't very versed in trans issues (perhaps more in gay and lesbian issues), and she wasn't really on board with a GID diagnosis, but she recognized that I had some level of gender dysphoria, and I was able to convince her and a sympathetic GP that lose dose HRT might be worth a trial.  Which is not exactly "by the book."  I get a liver function panel and blood work done every 3-4 months.

I had already taken Aldactone (spironolactone) as a diuretic for a couple of years because of hypertensive heart disease, so I went on the lowest dose 17 beta estradiol patch.  (Interestingly, my cardiologist took me off Aldactone when he increased the dosage on another potassium-sparing ACE inhibitor.)  The first thing I noticed on the patch was that my nagging dysphoria more or less vanished.  The second thing I noticed was the renewal and expansion of the breast buds I had for 40 years.  I am still ambivalent about my current state of "blossoming," and I don't feel ready to jump in with both feet.  Consequently, I have sought out another therapist.

This is somewhat atypical, as far as I know, but androgynes seem to be the trouble-makers and envelope pushers in the trangender world.  My low dose HRT regimen has helped in some respects, and has had unexpectedly quick complications in another.

Okay - so yeah. I understand that this is not something to undertake lightly (that's why I'm doing all this research, discussing things with my wife, asking questions here and going to see a gender therapist). I understand that I can't pick and choose the effects I want. I want to make an informed decision and as such I'm asking what other people's experiences have been. If I decide to go this route, I'll deal with the consequences of things I may not like in exchange for hopefully a whole bunch of things that improve my quality of life.

Rivan, I can totally relate to the noise in the head thing. I am encouraged to hear that the noise stopped for you. You describe the "side effects" that you were willing to accept for that sense of calm and that is exactly the way I feel. I don't view all of the physical changes as negative and the ones I do are why I'm here asking questions so I can weigh the pros and cons. Of course all of this is even before talking to a therapist so I'll be even more prepared when I go there.

The sterility isn't really an issue for me. If we decide to have another child, we'll do that before starting this treatment. Believe me, it won't take long. Two pregnancies each within the first month of my wife going off the pill, so I don't think that will be a problem. I was more asking I guess how sure I can be that I will be sterile. I know this stuff can make "bad" swimmers as well as no swimmers and I would hate to have my wife stop taking the pill and then we end up with an accidental pregnancy that might have complications.

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm still hoping to hear some more personal experiences...

Quote from: riven1 on March 01, 2012, 01:32:17 PM
The ability to father children - i've had mine and i'm past that now LOL..... but the equipment still works, sorta. It's hard to start and often stalls out. It's also become a zero emissions device if you follow my drift. That happened within 8 months. I have to warm it up now for quite a while before i hit the road. The feeling that i get is also the one described by many - a full on body experience and not just a localized sensation.

Oh yeah, also wanted to add that my wife and I discovered my ability for female orgasms a while ago. Since I started on this self-discovery tour, we've been consciously making love like two woman (even though this is really what was going on all along). The only difference is what I have between my legs and she really enjoys that part of it. That's why I'm concerned with the equipment working. If it stops working - well then we'll just find some other creative things to do.

    When you find the right therapist and doctor combination that understand what low dose HRT is, and they are becoming more and more available, you will not be started on a level that is used by MTF's. The most likely thing is you will get to try a very low dose of spiro.
This will tell you in less than a week, probably within a few days, if it is right for you. It's used as a testosterone blocker and at low doses is not going to permanently cause any changes in the short (months) term. If it quiets the rage, so be it. You'll notice that and not much more if anything else. The kind of dosages that many MTF are taking, are much higher. If you are going for MTF transition, the dose will be much higher.

The amount of literature available to doctors and therapists is becoming extensive. If they are having problems finding what they need to know, I can give you the name of my gender therapist who literally started and wrote the books on non-binaries. He is the one who first proposed the idea of a spectrum and is still considered a leading if not the leading expert in the field. I work with a team of people who make it a priority that the information is current and correct. They are all willing to freely disribute this information to any doctors and therapists who wish to be current in their knowledge of meds and the way they are used for Non-Binaries.

What is right for transexuals is a whole different thing than what is right for Androgyn's and other Non-Binaries. You cannot and should not rely on old information that is simply not right for Androgyn's and anyone not looking for a full transition.
The steps are much smaller, delaying any extensive 'damage' for a length of time, that will let you decide what is right for you.
Any doseage information and the results that are any older that just a few years is out of touch and is not being used by any knowledgeable doctors. It will pay to find one that is current with what is going on in the world of Non-Binaries. It is not the same as what is prescribed to those seeking full or near full transitions.

There are Non-Binaries who haven't the need to go to the extent of using Estrogen. Simply lowering the effects of Testosterone is enough. In quite a few cases, the effects are reversible to a high degree, less so as the years go by though. At the lowest doseage, the effects are minimal for quite some time, with few if any physically noticeable changes.

Just quieting the 'noise', the GID, may be all that you are, in the end, looking for.

I would be very wary of advice from anyone who is not directly familiar with the needs of Non-Binaries. It is usually wrong and very outdated.

Ativan

Wow. Thank you so much! This is exactly the kind of information I have been hoping to get. The clinic I'm going to has the following on their website:

"What does Trans* mean?

We've used the asterisk symbol (*) here to indicate a variable condition, and reflect a broad range of gender identities and experiences.  We are using Trans* as an umbrella term that includes anyone identifying along the transgender spectrum, those who consider themselves bi-gendered or multi-gendered, as well as people who do not identify with any labels."

They also say this about the first appointment:

"In this session a psychosocial history is taken with special focus on gender identity development and role expression through the person's life, including past transition experiences.  Additionally, Informed Consent requires an understanding of the risks and benefits of beginning hormone therapy.  As such, part of this session is educational in nature"

I think this place will be perfect for me. I think they'll help me decide what is right for me based on what I hope to accomplish. It sucks I have to wait so long for my appointment. I've been so discouraged some days that I've wanted to just cancel and try to move on with my life, but I think we all can agree that probably isn't a viable option.

Fantastic post, Ativan.

Melanie Anne: That sounds like a place well worth waiting for the app't. When the word is around about clinics such as that one seems to be, the waiting list can be long. Gives you an idea of how important it is to many people to have a place that is current on meds and the ever changing diversity and needs of Non-Binary People. Hang in there, it's worth it.

Jamie D: Why, Thank you! *blush*

Quote from: Ativan on March 03, 2012, 11:58:04 AM
Melanie Anne: That sounds like a place well worth waiting for the app't. When the word is around about clinics such as that one seems to be, the waiting list can be long. Gives you an idea of how important it is to many people to have a place that is current on meds and the ever changing diversity and needs of Non-Binary People. Hang in there, it's worth it.

Jamie D: Why, Thank you! *blush*

I appreciate honest and open information.  Especially from those who have already been around the block.  That's why I signed up.

Thanks for the post Ativan - it pretty much describes what I'm trying to achieve.

I've just started on meds, and the dosages are low - I'm hoping to get rid of the noise without going too far with things so to speak.
Definitely, a therapist and endo who are on the right page will go a long way.  I last saw my therapist a few years ago, and only saw my endo this week but he was happy to get me started.

With Spiro, you should feel the effects in less than a week, maybe just a few days. It's subtle at first, but when you recognize it, you'll start to understand the effects and what it is doing for you. You can try higher doses, I did, I eventually went up to the doseage used to fully transition for awhile. I didn't feel any different and the physical changes, mainly my testicles and penis, were happening to fast. I went back to the low dose after I had stopped all together for a month. The physical changes have reversed for the most part, and I feel pretty good in the GID dept.
I've been OK'd to try estrogen if I want. I'm thinking of doing just that. The effects at very low doses, which is what I want (it's important to me that it is, 'what I want'), may or may not do what I think it may do. I'll just have to find out by trying.
Who knows,...I just may feel like going the distance, some here have. It's a way to find yourself, it's all just trial and error.
Hopefully no major errors, which is what low dose is really about. Lets you have a peek maybe about who you are. Maybe not.
Being non-binary is a journey, just as life should be. Ours is a different one than most peoples.
Have fun and stay out of trouble. Good luck to you and others who are trying this path. I hope it becomes what you are looking for.

Ativan

Thanks so much for your reply Ativan. This is the kind of personal experience I was hoping to hear. When you say "it's important to me that it is 'what I want'" I can completely relate. I think just that psychological effect (like what you describe with spiro) is pretty much what I'm going for. I don't believe I could ever completely "pass" just on HRT because of some physical characteristics I have that HRT won't really change and I can't afford to surgically alter. So I am just looking for relief from the dysphoria. I am considering talking to my doctor about either Finasteride or Dutasteride though to try to help with one of those physical changes (MPB). I know spiro is the most common thing to be prescribed and I wonder if the other two will provide the same kind of psychological change. Without knowing a whole lot, I'm not sure just blocking testosterone (or DHT) would be enough without also adding E.

I already feel like some change has happened within me - I'm able to open up more and be myself more where before I always repressed saying things or acting a certain way. Now I'm just being who I'm comfortable being (which is hard since I've been repressing things for so long I'm having to rediscover who I really am). I'm really getting excited now and less stressed because the time is coming that I'll be able to do something about this. I have an appointment with a therapist next weekend so I'll finally be able to talk these things through with a professional. Wish me luck and I'll post updates if anyone's interested!

I only started my meds this week and my endo suggested low dose estrogen to start.  I have a Follow up appointment in 6 weeks with blood tests prior.  It will be interesting to see how I feel by next appointment - we may move onto a blocker as well.

As far as the order of the meds were concerned I really didn't have a definite preference - do talk and find out which effects may help you most and then request the appropriate meds.  If you have good clear reasons for one or the other the doctor should be reasonable enough to accommodate you.

Good luck!

Any updates could be important to those who look at this thread. Any and all current information would answer a lot of questions people may have. Low dose HRT for non-binaries is still a new thing for many people and professionals.

I will update if I choose to start estrogen. Updates and information about how Finasteride and Dutasteride work could also be very helpful.

It's a hard thing to do, getting past repression and rediscovering/discovering ones self. Those are the first steps towards getting rid of GID.
You need to know as much as you can about yourself before making the decision to try Low Dose HRT. It is a very big step to take. It does have it's own risks and you need to be aware of the changes as they happen. Like I said, I hit a point that made me back off on the doseage. The decision I made and the way it went was from knowing as much of who I am. That knowing was a process that started a few years ago.

I felt comfortable in my knowledge of myself after a couple years working with therapy. It took until I found the right people who know what low dose is about. It's not something to just lightly go into, you have to pay attention to the changes to stay on the path that is right for you.

I am a little over a year now using spiro. It has taken this long to make the decision of using estrogen. But, that is me. It's the path that I want and like to be on. Others are going to be different. It's likely to make a significant change. Move forward, by all means. Low dose can be the best for some, it may not be for others.

By all means, do what is right for you. But, knowing what that right is, is the most important thing of all.

Ativan

Thanks everyone! It's informative to read first hand accounts how this is working for other non-binary people. I'm currently in discussion with my therapist about possibly starting HRT, if I proceed, I will report back here.

Z

i had flomax for prostate problems. it made my nipples sore sensited to touch. couldn't shoot cum. stop taking it.

as a M2A transitioning person on full transition level hormones (M2F) I see my ideal end point as being a bearded Lady.  I am curious on what is avaiable info wise about non binary trans people I've struggled to find acceptance from medical people to be willing to accept me for who I am and allow me to transition toward who I am.  even though they only see the binary genders as normal.  If there are any websites I can point my doctor at or that I can look at myself then that would be great.  It often feels like there is no-one like me in the real world or at least not in my state

@Kinkly: Email me.
If I had the restriction for PM's lifted, I would use that, for many here it would be safer, but in the mean time, use my email.
I can give you the info you need to pass on to your Doctor.
You are not alone here.
But, like you and many others, finding ourselves in real life is difficult.
I only have a friend who is trying to understand.
To understand beyond my ability to do so. 
Try http://www.phs.umn.edu/
It is where I go, it is who I trust.
The initial idea of a gender spectrum was initiated from them originally in Europe.
I consider them to be the leading experts, as many do, in the field of HRT.

Ativan

"Ya'll" might be interested in this article I recently posted; https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,117366.0.html  .