Quote from: Slytherin17 on April 02, 2012, 09:37:53 PM
I know that brain scans has shown that Transmens white and grey brain matter are like a biological males but does the brain function as a males. Like this article said that males aren't as socially sensitive and are better at spatial organization and mechanical stuff. So would a Transmans brain work as a biological males when it comes to stuff like that?

I think that is too general of a question.  Not all cis men's brain function the same way.  Everyone's brain functions differently to different degrees, whether the person is cis or trans.  Are there certain types of things men are said to excel in while women are not and vice versa?  Sure, but not all men excel in these things while not all women don't excel in them. 

So to answer your question, some may, but some may not because not all cis men are good at mechanics or lack sensitivity.  It's a generalized stereotypical statement. 

Then there is the dichotomy between the rational and the emotional- no one this far has even mentioned...
Male 'average' brain function is a LOT more 'focused' on the rational way to solve things, female 'average' plenty more 'focused' in making use of emotional part to solve issues. In the end BOTH are actually needed.

Too boot it has not much to do with IQ either, but EQ comes into it all as well.

Now go take your pick...

Am not sure if "male brain" in general terms is a "rubbish" concept, but it is not THAT easy to pin it down - to say the least.

Axélle

Quote from: Nygeel on April 03, 2012, 09:16:07 AM
What people consider a "male brain" isn't the brain of somebody who identifies as male. Often times people with aspergers syndrome are labeled as having a "very male brain" yet I know a lot of trans women with aspergers so doesn't that invalidate their gender?

Who cares. You are asking a loaded question because even if it did, it's not politically correct and being PC takes precedence over reality. But, ya know, maybe I'm the only one who has noticed, but there's *way* more "butch dyke lesbians" in the MTF board than in probably any sampling of the general female population. Similarly, there's way more "gay femme men" here. 

Look, people can do what they want. But there is a difference between wanting to be able to be yourself which is naturally like something, and being not very much like something but wanting to be anyway.

Just because you identify as something doesn't mean you are very much like that thing. People can identify as anything. I don't even know what "identify" means in that context. It's just a preference. It's like if I said I identify as having fabulous hair. Which I do 

So yes, everybody's identity is just as valid, but IMO, different people's identity are based on different things. And not everybody's identity matches their brain sex... that doesn't mean brain sex doesn't exist. You can't just rewrite reality because it's convenient.... 

The brain scan findings are basically just the latest hint the medical community is jumping at. truth of the matter is, we have no idea how that brain which often resembles an average male brain more than it resembles an average female brain came to be the way it is at the time it is scanned.
Was it prenatal testosterone exposure? Or is it the result of many years of above-average testosterone levels? FTMs tend to have high testosterone levels prior to HRT. Or does an FTM's brain look "male" on a scan because we have identified as male for so many years. The point is, we just don't know.

What is for sure, though, is that a brain that appears more "male" or more "female" on a scan when compared to a prototypical male or female brain (which are determined by creating an average!) does not allow any conclusions about the person's gender identity.
After all, one study found that gay men's brain scans tend to be more similar to female brain scans than to male brain scans.

So it's just not that simple. How come it's not that simple? Well, a brain scan certainly doesn't give sufficient evidence regarding the contents of a brain. It's a snapshot of the hardware, that's all. And even that hardware is subject to change.

The trans community puts too much emphasis on the correlation (remember, correlation doesn't equal causation) between brain sex and gender identity. There's definitely a link (autistics are considered to have extreme male brains, and the rate of transsexuality in CAFAB people with autism is through the roof-I'm one of them), but it doesn't really mean much. The average person has a gender-neutral brain, but the average person doesn't have a non-binary identity.

Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 12:13:31 AMThe average person has a gender-neutral brain

That doesn't make any sense. Like, most people have sexuality consistent with their sex.

Source? 

Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 12:13:31 AM
The trans community puts too much emphasis on the correlation (remember, correlation doesn't equal causation) between brain sex and gender identity. There's definitely a link (autistics are considered to have extreme male brains, and the rate of transsexuality in CAFAB people with autism is through the roof-I'm one of them), but it doesn't really mean much. The average person has a gender-neutral brain, but the average person doesn't have a non-binary identity.

where is everyone getting this "autism=male brain"? i have asperger's, and am female. the only thing it really does is make me awkward in social situations, trouble with eyecontact, some sensory problems, and then floppier muscles which make me more clumsy. i don't see what makes me male brained there. that just comes from the transwomen who think their the "->-bleeped-<-st of them all."
you can be a female and not be talkative or a "skilled socializer."

*i'm LD in math and spatial thinking. less capable than the average female.

  First off I want to apologize to you guys for saying "transman" all this time. I had like no idea it was offensive. I'm trans and I still don't know what is offensive and what isn't, it gets kinda confusing. 

  Didn't they do brain scans on mtf & ftm transsexuals that proves a correlation between them and their target gender? I can't remember where i read it but i'm pretty sure they did.

@Pretty, I understand what your saying but girl you need to calm down lol. I think you got your point across. 

Quote from: MacKenzie on April 04, 2012, 01:22:19 AM

@Pretty, I understand what your saying but girl you need to calm down lol. I think you got your point across.

Lol I am always calm 

Well, interesting to note that all of this was chewed over not too long ago...

See: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=102610.0

Axelle

Quote from: pretty on April 03, 2012, 01:51:04 PM
Who cares. You are asking a loaded question because even if it did, it's not politically correct and being PC takes precedence over reality. But, ya know, maybe I'm the only one who has noticed, but there's *way* more "butch dyke lesbians" in the MTF board than in probably any sampling of the general female population. Similarly, there's way more "gay femme men" here. 

Look, people can do what they want. But there is a difference between wanting to be able to be yourself which is naturally like something, and being not very much like something but wanting to be anyway.

Just because you identify as something doesn't mean you are very much like that thing. People can identify as anything. I don't even know what "identify" means in that context. It's just a preference. It's like if I said I identify as having fabulous hair. Which I do 

So yes, everybody's identity is just as valid, but IMO, different people's identity are based on different things. And not everybody's identity matches their brain sex... that doesn't mean brain sex doesn't exist. You can't just rewrite reality because it's convenient.... 

Bolded for emphasis. I agree on all counts; well said.

@Moon: The effect that autism has on social skills is basically a major exaggeration of the difference between male and female social skills. For instance, autistics have a more monotone speaking style than allistics (non-autistics), like how men have a more monotone speaking style than women.

Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 02:08:36 AM
@Moon: The effect that autism has on social skills is basically a major exaggeration of the difference between male and female social skills. For instance, autistics have a more monotone speaking style than allistics (non-autistics), like how men have a more monotone speaking style than women.

but we're still comparing apples and bananas here. the reason someone with asperger's is more monotone in speech is because they just do not understand "social code." they don't understand all the things like facial expressions, body language, and what's the appropriate way to act when, where, with who and everything in between. females could be "like males" for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being masculine/feminine male/female. just like you could be a male with histrionic personality disorder and have excessive emotionalism, attention seeking, theatricality, and seductiveness. they do better in jobs with more creativity and imagination, but poorly in logic or analytical thinking. this is diagnosed more in women than in men.
of course, it's normal for one set of symptoms to overlap another. really gender could be characterized as "symptoms," because that's really what it is, certain criteria of behavior. people don't believe this because they say it's just what is normal and perfect, but nothing and no one is.

@Moon: I get what you're trying to get at there-but one of the most likely causes of autism is an overabundance of prenatal testosterone, which couldn't exactly result in anything BUT a male brain. Pretty much all the stats, as well as my personal experience, points to this being one of the factors that causes it.

Wow, seriously, now you're telling an MTF that her brain is male because she has Asperger's?
There's NO consensus on what the distinctive features of a male as opposed to a female brain would be. There are other groups who were supposedly exposed to high testosterone levels  in the womb (certain intersex conditions, PCOS) out of which many don't grow up to identify as male.

If someone who has what is defined as a male brain (by a small group of scientists who have also pointed out that they see a gradience, not two distinctive levels) does not identify as male, then this invalidates, in return, the claim that a "mis-matched" brain inevitably makes a person transgender.

I agree with what emil said. This can be speculated about until the subject's skin is rubbed raw, but the fact is you can't get anywhere with this topic, because there is no definite answer. Brain research is very vague. There is no "male brain" or "female brain." There are variations and combinations of features that society perceives as masculine or feminine. People may or may not fit into this binary. Another thing to consider is that society operates under the structure of masculine=male and feminine=female, so that makes the results even more obscure. Someone who is trans or cis may or may not have a brain that easily falls under their gender category.

And I don't see why there are people so worried about this brain-body mismatch being the center of our "validity" as trans people who deserve to be recognized and treated. There are plenty of conditions that are recognized and treated and accepted as valid by society even though the "cause" isn't clear.

Quote from: henri on April 04, 2012, 02:26:40 PMAnd I don't see why there are people so worried about this brain-body mismatch being the center of our "validity" as trans people who deserve to be recognized and treated. There are plenty of conditions that are recognized and treated and accepted as valid by society even though the "cause" isn't clear.

This. I find there is too much emphasis on this "male brain" "female brain" jargon. Does it really matter what "brain" you have? Doesn't your self identification matter most?

@Emil: I said that people with autism have male brains, and yes, that includes transwomen. As we've already pointed out here, your brain sex often goes hand-in-hand with your gender identity, but they're NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME. There are people who identify as female (cis and trans alike) with male brains. There are people who identify as male (cis and trans alike) with female brains.

The only thing that can define a person's gender is THEMSELVES.

ok, so now i have a male brain, lol. i think the internet is seriously bad for my emotional health, so i'm just gonna take that with a grain of salt.

Quote from: Darrin on April 04, 2012, 04:37:54 PM
This. I find there is too much emphasis on this "male brain" "female brain" jargon. Does it really matter what "brain" you have? Doesn't your self identification matter most?

I don't see why people don't understand that if it is defined as just an issue of personal preference and not a real, physiological, actual medical problem, the argument for trans rights and legal protections and all that loses most of its weight, because then it is on the same footing as basically any lifestyle choice.