Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am.  I am what I am and I love to be who I am. 

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

Quote from: emil on April 04, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
Wow, seriously, now you're telling an MTF that her brain is male because she has Asperger's?
There's NO consensus on what the distinctive features of a male as opposed to a female brain would be. There are other groups who were supposedly exposed to high testosterone levels  in the womb (certain intersex conditions, PCOS) out of which many don't grow up to identify as male.

If someone who has what is defined as a male brain (by a small group of scientists who have also pointed out that they see a gradience, not two distinctive levels) does not identify as male, then this invalidates, in return, the claim that a "mis-matched" brain inevitably makes a person transgender.

There is many anatomical dimorphic centers in the brain, there are many dimorphic pathway in the brain, there many dimorphic processing ways in the brain. The distribution of receptors and neurotransmitters is also dimorphic.
Having stated those facts, here is one more: no human has a perfect male or a perfect female brain; every body lies along an spectrum with some characteristics of both.

So, how about "gender identity" center? Well, if you are and XY embryo (first trimester) you will need ESTROGEN inside the cells of your Stria terminalis (ST) so they can become masculine like. If you are a XX embryo, it is imperative that all estrogen be sequester so that your ST remains female in nature. For XY failure to have enough estrogen seems to result in GID. In XX failure to have enough alpha feto protein 1(the protein that sequesters estrogen and testosterone) seems to result in GID.

Belive it or not!

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

If this was a dating site I would have sent you a virtual rose by now.      LOL

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am.  I am what I am and I love to be who I am. 

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

FINALLY. Someone who gets it.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes, people listen to the Enquirer before any scientist. People will always be there to judge you no matter what ammo you have to back up who you are. And call me a dreamer, but I don't want anyone mapping my brain to get HRT or surgery. It's difficult enough as it is. If I feel I'm a man, I am one. There will be people out there that even with scientific evidence will say I'm not a man because I don't have a penis. Go figure. They haven't found the "gay gene" either and gay people are making strides towards equality. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's inching it's way closer. I think in the LGB community you're seeing a lot of strong figures coming out in the media in support. Believe it or not, at least in America, the media holds A LOT of water. And I think that's why positive things are happening. The trans* community however, doesn't have the same support. Not even from our own community. I think that play a major role in equality. Just my thoughts. Call me a dreamer, but I think the bigger issue is lack of visibility.

Quote from: Darrin on April 06, 2012, 09:07:44 PM

FINALLY. Someone who gets it.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes...

True enough! Neither we need to know how the hart works, but it is bice to know.

The "why and how" is what it drives us to the stars, curiosity

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am.  I am what I am and I love to be who I am. 

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

+1 (million). Yes. This. I couldn't say it better. Thanks for being waaay more eloquent that me, Squirrel.

Quote from: Arch on April 06, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
I definitely think you're being accurate to label this a feeling, since it's impossible to meaningfully test.

and you may have reafirmed it by an incriment;)

 

Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 10:42:21 PM


Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.

Thanks

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am.  I am what I am and I love to be who I am. 

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

I don't want to make this heated so I'll say here that i'm stating this calmly and rationally.

As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.

It was a ->-bleeped-<- fight. It's tough. Like I said dude. I'm not chimpin out or attacking your personality. I'm just interested to know if all those things were extranious to being a guy or do you think those attributes you described are masculine?

Quote from: Darrin on April 06, 2012, 09:07:44 PM

FINALLY. Someone who gets it.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes, people listen to the Enquirer before any scientist. People will always be there to judge you no matter what ammo you have to back up who you are. And call me a dreamer, but I don't want anyone mapping my brain to get HRT or surgery. It's difficult enough as it is. If I feel I'm a man, I am one. There will be people out there that even with scientific evidence will say I'm not a man because I don't have a penis. Go figure. They haven't found the "gay gene" either and gay people are making strides towards equality. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's inching it's way closer. I think in the LGB community you're seeing a lot of strong figures coming out in the media in support. Believe it or not, at least in America, the media holds A LOT of water. And I think that's why positive things are happening. The trans* community however, doesn't have the same support. Not even from our own community. I think that play a major role in equality. Just my thoughts. Call me a dreamer, but I think the bigger issue is lack of visibility.

re the bold. That's good because we don't. We are able to transition without a brain scan. It's also good because the brain scan wouldn't prove anything

The way I understood Squirrel's statement was that this particular discussion is difficult, because we don't have set answers. We cannot say with 100% certainty that factors A, B, or C are the causes of being trans just like we can't say they are not factors. That was how I took it anyway.

Quote from: Rubberneck on April 06, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.

Growing up is difficult, I think. We all struggle when we are younger to fit into society, roles, and expectations. I know that I certainly struggled growing up. I don't think one gender has it harder than the other(s). Its just a different set of problems and struggles. It ends up being doubly difficult if a child/young adult does not fit in with the rest of the group they are "supposed" to be a part of. I remember being forced as a kid to socialize with girls, and it was terrible, because I was different, and when you are different, you become a target.

I doubt Squirrel was saying that "lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy" is a "male" thing. I think he was saying that that is something that he does on occasion, and it doesn't make his identity any less valid.

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 10:42:21 PM


Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.

Sorry Connie!

I try to mind myself, even though I sometimes speak without thinking. If I have said anything offensive or that seems like a personal attack, I apologize.

Quote from: Ayden on April 06, 2012, 11:02:46 PM
Sorry Connie!

I try to mind myself, even though I sometimes speak without thinking. If I have said anything offensive or that seems like a personal attack, I apologize.

Ayden,

My admonition was more in general. Your post itself does not seem offensive.

The post you applauded seemed, to me, to show the joy of dichotomy with regards to gender. To give an MTF's perspective on this, I like many "girly" things, pink & purple are among my favorite colors. But, I also like the Star Wars movies because I like the sound and light show. I like games like Doom II and Quake II and Halo because I like watching things explode. These aren't typically feminine and it could be argued they are due to a "male brain" as I was born male.

That's my take on the topic, for now.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am.  I am what I am and I love to be who I am. 

I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV.  I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best.  I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason.  I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream.  I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes.  I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help.  Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience.  I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way.  I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences.  I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.

That's who I am.  Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.

Not to be rude but nobody expects to see the intricacies of a person's personality on a brain scan.

All it would show are sweeping differences that make you more prone to behaving in certain ways or liking certain things.

I think the main interesting question in all this is why people who can be themselves more easily as their birth sex go out of their way to transition, only to end up making it harder to be themselves.

Like, I like wearing dresses and makeup and I have a boyfriend and I like crafty things and have social anxiety too and all that. So naturally I wouldn't want to be a man, that would make it difficult to be myself. As a man I have to spend every day hearing "cut your hair," getting called a ->-bleeped-<-, getting called weak and too small, being taken advantage of, etc. And that's even while being too afraid to do most of the things I like doing. Who knows what kind of crap I would get if I did them. I fit in less, to say the least.

But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?

I think brain sex can at least show why we like what we like. Why we choose to transition? Probably not, because people seem to transition for different reasons...

So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all.  I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).

Quote from: Rubberneck on April 06, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.

I'm just interested to know if all those things were extranious to being a guy or do you think those attributes you described are masculine?

You totally missed the point he was making.

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 11:09:30 PM
To give an MTF's perspective on this, I like many "girly" things, pink & purple are among my favorite colors. But, I also like the Star Wars movies because I like the sound and light show. I like games like Doom II and Quake II and Halo because I like watching things explode.

Nothing wrong with liking things! Actually, this reminds me of the woman is like my sister (we've been friends since we were kids). She rocks at Halo and has beaten me of several occasions (okay, all of them), loves cars, and is a huge sci fi fan. But, she also loves being "girly" and adores purple sweaters. Doesn't make her any less female. I think its great that people have interests that can go across genders. Not that I agree with gendering activities anyway. I like pro wrestling and action movies, cars, video games, and doing physical labor. But, I also adore baby animals (seriously, who doesn't!), enjoy watching romantic comedies or "chick flicks" (I hate that term), and sometimes I just get in the mood write silly little short stories (usually as mushy as can be).

Honestly, I think people should enjoy what makes them happy, regardless of their gender identity or physical body.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?

I think this is a personal thing. Playing games, liking cars and mechanics, collecting guns, etc. can be something that women are interested in as well. That pretty much describes my Aunt B perfectly. She even has the dominant personality to boot. Actually, it describes my lesbian mechanic as well. Identity and interests don't always have to match up perfectly, just like being attracted to someone of the same physical sex doesn't affect identity. Some folks are trans men and attracted to men, sometimes they are transwomen and attracted to women, and that is perfectly fine. Some folks have interests that are typically associated with their gender identity and some don't, and that is okay too. My partner (cis male) wears bright pink socks and a rainbow belt, and openly coos at adorable animals, babies, and clothes. He still sees himself as being male, even though a lot of his interests and hobbies are considered "female" and he has no gender conflicts.

To each his/her/hir/their own. But, this is only my opinion, and I in no way attribute this anyone else. I also do not want to offend, either, just thought I would offer my thoughts, since this thread got me thinking.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all.  I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).

What you like to do really has nothing to do with how you identify your gender.  I transitioned because I was likely going to kill myself soon if I didn't take those steps.  Is transition and all that comes with it hard?  Sometimes, depends on who you are interacting with, but to me the hardness/difficulties of that were far outweighed by trying to live as/being viewed as a gender that I knew I was not.

Not really sure what you mean by "norms of target sex" as those vary culturally and are usually stereotypical expectations placed on individuals. 

Quote from: Ayden on April 07, 2012, 12:42:07 AM

I think this is a personal thing. Playing games, liking cars and mechanics, collecting guns, etc. can be something that women are interested in as well. That pretty much describes my Aunt B perfectly. She even has the dominant personality to boot. Actually, it describes my lesbian mechanic as well. Identity and interests don't always have to match up perfectly, just like being attracted to someone of the same physical sex doesn't affect identity. Some folks are trans men and attracted to men, sometimes they are transwomen and attracted to women, and that is perfectly fine. Some folks have interests that are typically associated with their gender identity and some don't, and that is okay too. My partner (cis male) wears bright pink socks and a rainbow belt, and openly coos at adorable animals, babies, and clothes. He still sees himself as being male, even though a lot of his interests and hobbies are considered "female" and he has no gender conflicts.

To each his/her/hir/their own. But, this is only my opinion, and I in no way attribute this anyone else. I also do not want to offend, either, just thought I would offer my thoughts, since this thread got me thinking.

Well, that is kinda what most people say, "I know ___ person and they are very masculine for a woman" and stuff, but that's not really my point. I mean, it's not weird for a cis person to be whatever because cis people just are how they ended up.

A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like we forget that we are still animals at the end of the day. The sexes exist for a very specific reason and gender is a slightly more complicated extension of that. If the pants don't fit, is it even enjoyable to wear them?

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:21:55 AM
Well, that is kinda what most people say, "I know ___ person and they are very masculine for a woman" and stuff, but that's not really my point. I mean, it's not weird for a cis person to be whatever because cis people just are how they ended up.

A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like we forget that we are still animals at the end of the day. The sexes exist for a very specific reason and gender is a slightly more complicated extension of that. If the pants don't fit, is it even enjoyable to wear them?

I see what you are saying, but I think on this point I am going to have to ask to agree to disagree. I believe that humans are not a slave to their genitalia. No offense intended, of course, I just see where you are coming from, and I think that opinions about this particular topic are different for everyone.

unless any of us actually take a "standardized gender test" to prove which one we are, we have nothing to rely on but the way we feel, which is usually right. in my experience, i've learned that the only real mistake is doing what others tell you should be done. unless that persons psychic, you can trust them as much as walking blindfolded across a highway on rush hour.