DOOPABLOOP;

in my opinion you cant really be cis, if your born trans..
cis, is as far I always decribed, a person where theres no mistake about the gender, since birth,
the person got born as male/female, grew up as boy/girl, and lived as a man/woman..

and transgender people simply dont fit that, thats why its called transgender, and not cis..
I dont belive you can get away from the fact your trans by surgery or any kinds of threatment. theres always things who will be diffrent and even if you could change that you cant change your past.

but I am not god over what people identify with or not,
just saying what I belive.

Quote from: doopabloop on April 06, 2012, 12:24:55 AM
This makes me wonder if, as with say, asthma or I dunno, diabetes? You would disclose this with others, or close friends, or what, even if you didn't identify with it?
I guess, are you supposed to tell people you're trans (in definition) even if you don't identify with it?

  A couple of points on this.

  First, how many people who have these medical issues try desperately to hide they have them or lie/make up lies to cover they have it? Like I said, I don't announce it but if someone asked or hinted around this subject I wouldn't lie about it either. I honestly feel "So I'm a -transgendered- woman, so what?"

  Second, if someone has asthma and denies to themselves they have asthma does this mean they don't have it? The physical manifestations are there. Of course they don't have to accept they have asthma, no one can force them to, but it's still there. The only reason I can see for someone not willing to accept this would be they see something wrong with having it. Of course it's not a pleasant thing to have to deal with but there are things in life everyone has to deal with we don't like. And yes there are some narrow minded people who would see someone with asthma as weak or inferior. Should they then try to hide this fact so the morons of the world don't see them this way?

  For me, I honestly just don't see why I should feel I have to hide this from everyone. I also would feel insulted if I was cis and someone I considered a good friend didn't share this part of themselves with me. especially if they made up lies to cover it up. It's saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this." Clearly I also don't see a need to hope everyone on the planet is kind and open minded, but I hope people who I chose to be friends with are. And if they aren't, I don't want them as friends.

Quote from: Arch on April 06, 2012, 12:42:31 AM
For a long time, I identified as trans because I couldn't live as a man. I didn't look at trans as a gender, but it was part of my identity.

Shortly into transition, it stopped being part of my identity and became more of a description of my history...also my continuing history, since I haven't had bottom surgery and have some issues with my lower anatomy.

I like this, haha. I dunno, the way you put it just makes a lot of same.

Quote from: N.Chaos on April 06, 2012, 01:12:45 AM
I feel pretty much the same way. I look at it the same way I view all my other issues and disorders. They're a part of my life, and they're part of me (unfortunately), but they sure as hell don't define me.

I think this is true and definitely agree.

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 06, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
You don't have to tell anyone anything you don't want to.

There isn't a social stigma attributed with having asthma or diabetes or anything like that.  You don't here people who say "well you were born with a pancreas that didn't produce any insulin, that's what God wanted, you need to learn to live with it." or anything like that.

I also dislike trans being used as a noun.  It's dehumanizing imo.  Yes, I'm of a trans history, but I'm not "a trans", I'm a person, who is a man.

Really? I dunno, I do know that y'know some associate diabetes with being fat, so...yeah. I dunno. There's definitely a social stigma associated with being fat. That was just the best example I could think of besides being gay haha;;

I agree of course haha. The same way one wouldn't say "the gay".

Quote from: Natkat on April 06, 2012, 08:36:28 AM
DOOPABLOOP;

in my opinion you cant really be cis, if your born trans..
cis, is as far I always decribed, a person where theres no mistake about the gender, since birth,
the person got born as male/female, grew up as boy/girl, and lived as a man/woman..

and transgender people simply dont fit that, thats why its called transgender, and not cis..
I dont belive you can get away from the fact your trans by surgery or any kinds of threatment. theres always things who will be diffrent and even if you could change that you cant change your past.

but I am not god over what people identify with or not,
just saying what I belive.

That's true, I guess..........I dunno, I just see a LOT of different trans identities and it's pretty interesting/confusing.

Quote from: Stephe on April 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
  A couple of points on this.

  First, how many people who have these medical issues try desperately to hide they have them or lie/make up lies to cover they have it? Like I said, I don't announce it but if someone asked or hinted around this subject I wouldn't lie about it either. I honestly feel "So I'm a -transgendered- woman, so what?"

  Second, if someone has asthma and denies to themselves they have asthma does this mean they don't have it? The physical manifestations are there. Of course they don't have to accept they have asthma, no one can force them to, but it's still there. The only reason I can see for someone not willing to accept this would be they see something wrong with having it. Of course it's not a pleasant thing to have to deal with but there are things in life everyone has to deal with we don't like. And yes there are some narrow minded people who would see someone with asthma as weak or inferior. Should they then try to hide this fact so the morons of the world don't see them this way?

  For me, I honestly just don't see why I should feel I have to hide this from everyone. I also would feel insulted if I was cis and someone I considered a good friend didn't share this part of themselves with me. especially if they made up lies to cover it up. It's saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this." Clearly I also don't see a need to hope everyone on the planet is kind and open minded, but I hope people who I chose to be friends with are. And if they aren't, I don't want them as friends.

I dunno, I wonder if it's less "I think you're narrow-minded so I won't tell you I'm trans" rather than "I don't feel it'll bring about any sort of benefit in our relationship" or "It's not a big deal that I am/I don't feel it was important enough to bring up/it never came up".

I mean personally I wouldn't feel offended if someone didn't tell me they were gay/trans/had asthma or Asperger's or something just because it's their choice to tell me. That and honestly what sort of situation would call for you telling someone you have asthma or diabetes? I had a friend who had Type I diabetes and I only found out because I helped her to the nurse when she was low on blood sugar once. She had never tried to hide it, but just never mentioned it. It never hurt our friendship.

I think it's not so much people want to hide that they're trans but just don't feel like it's something they want to disclose...I think there's a difference between hiding and not telling. Hiding is pretty active versus not telling being...well, passive.

I hear of cases where people go on dates and they don't tell the date they're trans, and later, when they either tell them/they find out they feel betrayed and I wonder if they have a right to feel betrayed, since the other party was never expected to state their sex and gender. It's not like they're lying, after all.

Another thing on the not telling a friend you're trans thing, just personally speaking, I wouldn't share intimate details like what color underwear I liked best, or what type of porn I beat off to. I would never be expected to. I just wonder why being trans is something we're obligated to tell people, otherwise we're "hiding" it? Sorry for the weird wording by the way oh man.

The only reason I relate disclosing a trans status to the color of underwear I like best or something is that for some people in this thread (at least) they feel it isn't a big part of their identity/doesn't define them.

Quote from: doopabloop on April 06, 2012, 08:30:53 PM

I think it's not so much people want to hide that they're trans but just don't feel like it's something they want to disclose...I think there's a difference between hiding and not telling. Hiding is pretty active versus not telling being...well, passive.

"especially if they made up lies to cover it up" is the key phrase. I read MTF telling people they were in the girl scouts, chatting about their period when the subject comes up etc. That seems pretty active to me. I would be pissed if someone made up lies to cover up something you say is so inconsequential.

Quote from: doopabloop on April 06, 2012, 08:30:53 PM

I hear of cases where people go on dates and they don't tell the date they're trans, and later, when they either tell them/they find out they feel betrayed and I wonder if they have a right to feel betrayed, since the other party was never expected to state their sex and gender. It's not like they're lying, after all.

I would think it should be obvious, other people looking to say date a woman assume someone who looks like a female was born a female. If they are not interested in a trans person, why would anyone want to force them to accept it anyway? If they wouldn't date/accept you because you are are/were trans, why would you want to date them? Again, if I was dating someone, I would expect them to tell me something this big. If it really is "no big deal" then telling them would make zero difference anyway correct?

I don't incorporate "trans" into my identity at all.  I see it as a medical condition.

Quote from: Stephe on April 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
  I also would feel insulted if I was cis and someone I considered a good friend didn't share this part of themselves with me. especially if they made up lies to cover it up. It's saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this." Clearly I also don't see a need to hope everyone on the planet is kind and open minded, but I hope people who I chose to be friends with are. And if they aren't, I don't want them as friends.

AMEN!!!!! absolutely.

Quote from: Stephe on April 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
  A couple of points on this.

  First, how many people who have these medical issues try desperately to hide they have them or lie/make up lies to cover they have it? Like I said, I don't announce it but if someone asked or hinted around this subject I wouldn't lie about it either. I honestly feel "So I'm a -transgendered- woman, so what?"

  Second, if someone has asthma and denies to themselves they have asthma does this mean they don't have it? The physical manifestations are there. Of course they don't have to accept they have asthma, no one can force them to, but it's still there. The only reason I can see for someone not willing to accept this would be they see something wrong with having it. Of course it's not a pleasant thing to have to deal with but there are things in life everyone has to deal with we don't like. And yes there are some narrow minded people who would see someone with asthma as weak or inferior. Should they then try to hide this fact so the morons of the world don't see them this way?

  For me, I honestly just don't see why I should feel I have to hide this from everyone. I also would feel insulted if I was cis and someone I considered a good friend didn't share this part of themselves with me. especially if they made up lies to cover it up. It's saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this." Clearly I also don't see a need to hope everyone on the planet is kind and open minded, but I hope people who I chose to be friends with are. And if they aren't, I don't want them as friends.

In an ideal world, it wouldn't make people treat you differently, but this world is far from ideal. They will. Lying is a defence mechanism.

No, it's not like saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this". Some people are just uncomfortable with making the private, well, public. Do you expect men with micropenis to tell all their friends this? People with STDs? Some things are personal and should remain that way.

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 06, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
I also dislike trans being used as a noun.  It's dehumanizing imo.  Yes, I'm of a trans history, but I'm not "a trans", I'm a person, who is a man.

Word. I get so impatient with people who say "a transsexual" and stuff like that. It's like saying "a gay" or "a black"... inaccurate, if nothing else.

Quote from: poptart on April 07, 2012, 05:30:40 AM
Do you expect men with micropenis to tell all their friends this?

That isn't even close to being the same thing.. And I think at some level you know this. Changing your whole gender from the one you were born and grew up with isn't even in the same ballpark.

People "lie as a defense mechanism" but then try to claim being trans is such a minor thing, it's no big deal, so they lie about it? I lived a lie long enough, I'm not going from one closet into another.

Quote from: Stephe on April 06, 2012, 10:03:14 AM
I also would feel insulted if I was cis and someone I considered a good friend didn't share this part of themselves with me. especially if they made up lies to cover it up. It's saying "I know you are narrow minded and would negatively judge me over this." Clearly I also don't see a need to hope everyone on the planet is kind and open minded, but I hope people who I chose to be friends with are. And if they aren't, I don't want them as friends.

Boo hoo poor cis people.  No one has a right to know what's in my pants, friend or not.

Quote from: pretty on April 05, 2012, 04:33:42 AM
I guess, but I never understood it... how can you identify as trans? Transition is a process from one thing to another. How can you identify as a state of change? If they don't identify as the thing they're transitioning to then why are they transitioning to it!?

Idk, I would think it is the overwhelming norm to identify as your target sex though 

To play devil's advocate for a moment... being transgendered and transition aren't the same thing, although they use part of the same word. A transition is a change from one state to another, this is true, but that isn't the thing which people identify with, as far as I can see.

If life is largely composed of the sum total of experiences, emotions and interactions along the way, then it's not really so hard to see why some people would identify with being transgendered if, throughout their life to date, those feelings, experiences and interactions have been something other than being treated entirely as ones internal or percieved gender.

People who have completed transition, or are in stealth, are perhaps more able to put the 'trans' prefix into the background since, for them it isn't as important in their day to day lives. It isn't something which plays on their mind when struggling to come to terms with how they feel pre-transition, nor is it something they have to explain to people when deciding to undergo transition, or at different stages during transition.

Until one is in a position to be able to live their lives as their target sex, as you put it, then being transgendered is something which is, at least for the world in general, something which can't be ignored. Especially if one wants to undergo the transition to get there. And for that period of ones life, as I say, it's not a great leap to see why that would contribute, at least in part, to some people's identities.

Quote from: Stephe on April 07, 2012, 09:14:11 AM
That isn't even close to being the same thing.. And I think at some level you know this. Changing your whole gender from the one you were born and grew up with isn't even in the same ballpark.

People "lie as a defense mechanism" but then try to claim being trans is such a minor thing, it's no big deal, so they lie about it? I lived a lie long enough, I'm not going from one closet into another.

A guy born with a small dick is "in the same ballpark" as a guy born with none at all. The difference is about an inch.
Also no one changes their gender; we change our sex to match our gender. Correcting transsexualism is like correcting any other birth defect, like a cleft palate. It's medical history and also no one else's business.

I can't speak for anyone else but to me it's not minor. It's a very serious life-long affliction that causes a tremendous amount of suffering.

Do what you want, but know that it's not mandatory to disclose because there is no reason. It's simply not relevant to anyone else's life (outside of a sexual or romantic relationship).

Quote from: poptart on April 07, 2012, 11:02:51 AM
A guy born with a small dick is "in the same ballpark" as a guy born with none at all. The difference is about an inch.

So as a FTM this "one inch" would make no difference huh? *rolls eyes*  And that this person would also have his sex identified as male, which is what they are.. The size of a guys dick doesn't change their sex.

Quote from: poptart on April 07, 2012, 11:02:51 AM
Correcting transsexualism is like correcting any other birth defect, like a cleft palate. It's medical history and also no one else's business.

I guess this is where we differ, I never have seen this as a defect. Maybe other people see it that way, but I believe I was meant to be born TG and there is nothing wrong with it.

And one last question: if this is just a medical history issue, would you lie if someone asked if you ever had appendicitis and you had?

Quote from: Stephe on April 09, 2012, 06:43:41 PM

And one last question: if this is just a medical history issue, would you lie if someone asked if you ever had appendicitis and you had?

If there were a long history of violence against people who had appendicitis then lying about it would be acceptable.

Quote from: Stephe on April 09, 2012, 06:43:41 PM
So as a FTM this "one inch" would make no difference huh? *rolls eyes*  And that this person would also have his sex identified as male, which is what they are.. The size of a guys dick doesn't change their sex.

I guess this is where we differ, I never have seen this as a defect. Maybe other people see it that way, but I believe I was meant to be born TG and there is nothing wrong with it.

And one last question: if this is just a medical history issue, would you lie if someone asked if you ever had appendicitis and you had?

You're missing the point. The specifics are irrelevant; The point is that they're both physical medical conditions which are undesirable to disclose. They are not looked upon favourably, and they do not describe any aspect of who you are personality-wise. They affect only the physical body.

Ok, someone could just as easily say they were "meant to be born with cancer" and overcome it. Doesn't change that it's pathological. And if not a defect then why correct it?

For your last question, refer to Nygeel's answer. It is not only a medical condition but one that is misunderstood, stigmatized, etc. I wouldn't lie about appendicitis but I would about transsexualism, STDs, anything else of that nature. Would you go around telling all your friends that you have a yeast infection? Most wouldn't. And the truth of what we actually have is much, much worse.