Quote from: Ayden on April 07, 2012, 01:40:04 AM
I see what you are saying, but I think on this point I am going to have to ask to agree to disagree. I believe that humans are not a slave to their genitalia. No offense intended, of course, I just see where you are coming from, and I think that opinions about this particular topic are different for everyone.

Of course it's just an issue that makes me really curious. Nobody has to agree or anything lol 

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:21:55 AM
A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.

As far as I know most trans people transition to be seen as at the most basic sense either a man or a woman not as a the stereotypical "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" man or a "meek pretty princess who loves makeup" woman

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all.  I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).

For me transition is about correcting a physical birth defect, to describe it in very simplistic terms.

I never really fit completely into the norms for male in my society, and I really don't think I'll fit completely into the female norms, either. However, I am in transition nonetheless. That said, I identify with more female norms than male norms. But, both are there in me.

And since starting transition I've been more consistently happy than I have in a long time. The process has not been all rainbows and roses and I'm sure I'll have ups and downs for the rest of my life. But also, the people around me are really accepting of this (seemingly) oddball woman that I am now.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?

It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?

Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?

I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated.

Pretty, this is how I look at it using a metaphor because I enjoy metaphors.

Say at the start of your life you are given a pair of shoes.  These shoes are perfectly nice shoes and they are expected to carry you throughout your life.  The road of life is before you and it's not completely straight and there are plenty of pitfalls, mistakes and regrets and unforeseen tragedy.  There are plenty of beautiful stretches of road as well.  You have no choice but to walk it so off you go.  The shoes you were given don't quite fit right.  As shoes they do their job but they are uncomfortable.  They squish your toes and twist your ankle oddly.  You start to wonder why you were given such a crappy pair of shoes to walk such a treacherous road.  You look around and observe that everyone else seems to be doing better then you with their shoes.  So you try and hide the fact that you have a permanent foot cramp.  The problem the longer you walk in these shoes the worse they become.

So one day you are limping along and to your amazement you see someone changing their shoes.  You've never seen this before.  It's an amazing sight to see.  Yet the longer you walk on this bumpy stony trail the more and more people you see stopping to change their shoes.  Then one magical day you see a pair on the side on the road without an owner.  By now your feet in your ill-fitting shoes are bleeding, blistered and nearly ruined.  So you make the radical decision to stop and change your shoes.  People around you are aghast and horrified at you.  No one ever stops to change their shoes.  You should be thankful you have shoes at all.  These news shoes will look out of place with the rest of your outfit, don't you think?  Still you know what must be done so you change your shoes.

At first it doesn't work out so well.  The shoes are brand new and not broken in.  Your feet are so sore already that this added strain seems extra painful.  You almost wish you hadn't left your old shoes behind.  Still the longer you walk, the better the shoes start to feel.  Slowly they conform to your feet and they begin to fit in a way your old shoes never did.  Bit by bit you begin to walk taller.  Instead of stumbling along you can take proud upright steps.  The road before you is just as dangerous as before but with these new shoes you can navigate it the way that bring fulfillment.  The difficult road of life hasn't changed, you yourself haven't changed, but the way you walk through life has changed.  It was just a small change really.  Just your shoes but what a wonderful and much needed difference it has made.  Whether it's cultural, the fault of society or anything else, it doesn't matter.  What matters, to me, is that after changing my shoes, my road is still full of pitfalls but it's much much easier to navigate since I took the step of changing my shoes.

Rubberneck, I don't think being a man is being lazy and laying around in pajamas.  I think I, Paul, like to lay around in pajamas at times and be lazy.  I'm saying that's one small little bit of who I am occasionally.  I am also a guy but I do not correlate the two, male and pajamas, together.  Overall I am just a person, only that, who likes to get head massages.  One part of that person is male but that doesn't mean every part of me is male.  Every part of me isn't lazy and every part of me isn't male.  I just am, Paul, that's who I am.

I certainly do not speak for anyone else but me and no other men.  I am a category onto myself, the Squirrely Paul category of awesome.       

That shoe metaphor is a great way to describe things!

Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 10:44:31 AM
It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?

Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?

I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated.

Well said Sephirah,
now being post-op (SRS) only 6+ months I have almost forgotten what this GID stuff was all about!
It is quite amazing... and it was THIS that forced me to do something about it (once I understood what was going on).

And yes, now the "shoes" fit, walking in much more comfort, though the road is still treacherous and winding. (Thank you for that metaphor too, Squirrel :-)

Axélle

Love the shoe metaphor.

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 07, 2012, 02:23:57 AM
As far as I know most trans people transition to be seen as at the most basic sense either a man or a woman not as a the stereotypical "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" man or a "meek pretty princess who loves makeup" woman

Yeah of course not, but if they transition to be a "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" woman don't you think that's at all inconsistent?

The question is, what is a man or woman in the most basic sense? I think wildlife documentaries will tell you more about that than actually asking people about their complex feelings

The sexes do exist for a reason IMO, they're not totally intangible things, because if they were no different and they all did the same things just as often, there would only be one sex to begin with, ya know?

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
For me transition is about correcting a physical birth defect, to describe it in very simplistic terms.

I never really fit completely into the norms for male in my society, and I really don't think I'll fit completely into the female norms, either. However, I am in transition nonetheless. That said, I identify with more female norms than male norms. But, both are there in me.

And since starting transition I've been more consistently happy than I have in a long time. The process has not been all rainbows and roses and I'm sure I'll have ups and downs for the rest of my life. But also, the people around me are really accepting of this (seemingly) oddball woman that I am now.

I'm not saying that you specifically like to do mainly male things but there are plenty of people that transition even in spite of that being the case. I wonder what makes people feel that their body is defective even if it doesn't prevent them at all from being who they are, or even aids in it.

I mean, I really don't mean to be rude but you still have a male presentation picture for your avatar. How defective can it really feel?

Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 10:44:31 AM
It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?

Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?

I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated.

Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 07, 2012, 10:52:38 AM
Pretty, this is how I look at it using a metaphor because I enjoy metaphors.

(snipped metaphor)

Well, of course I understand transition itself. I totally get what you mean by the metaphor. What I do have trouble wrapping my head around is what would make someone want to transition even though their first pair of shoes fit better. I mean, I am not sure about FTMs but the a lot of people in the MTF forum have for the most part had pretty successful male lives. On the MTF forum there are business owners in male-dominated fields, with wives and several children and a bunch of guy friends, etc. As someone who really never got past the start line in the male world, it's strange.

And while I am absolutely not saying they should be kept from transition or something if it's what they want, I wonder, what makes them want it in the first place if they ran so fast and so well in their old shoes? And do the new ones really even fit?

Squirrel, I love your shoe metaphor.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.

That's really interesting, and begs one question, if I may. A hypothetical one.

Suppose you were the only person on a deserted island, able to do whatever you wanted, and there was no one to say what you should or shouldn't do, or think, or feel. Would you still feel any dysphoria, or a need to transition in order to express yourself?

I can't help but infer, from what you say, that you feel that being a girl 'fits' you better because that's the only way other people will accept your personality and methods of self-expression.

Remove the 'other people' aspect and... what? I guess that's what I'm asking.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
That's really interesting, and begs one question, if I may. A hypothetical one.

Suppose you were the only person on a deserted island, able to do whatever you wanted, and there was no one to say what you should or shouldn't do, or think, or feel. Would you still feel any dysphoria, or a need to transition in order to express yourself?

I can't help but infer, from what you say, that you feel that being a girl 'fits' you better because that's the only way other people will accept your personality and methods of self-expression.

Remove the 'other people' aspect and... what? I guess that's what I'm asking.

I don't think you can really separate who you are and how you relate to other people so easily.

Gender exists for social reasons and evolved out of a social context and I don't think it is useful outside of that.

I could say I would still want to look beautiful and feminine and I'm sure I would but then it would not be particularly satisfying if nobody was around to contrast that or to notice that. It's not like I find femininity especially attractive or like I idolize it. It's just how I want to present myself to the world because it's just how I naturally am. So the physical aspects of that are definitely more social because they give people a visual representation to see how I am.

I don't know, that's a weird hypothetical because I would not be in a good emotional state if I were stranded  on an island. And how can you express yourself to yourself?

As someone who spent a lot of my childhood very alone I should say that I think it's hard to appreciate how much you are defined by how you relate to other people until you have nobody to relate to. I didn't really even know who I was until I began relating to people and seeing how I interact with them.

Pretty,

My current avatar isn't, to me, a male presentation. It's a presentation of happiness.



This picture was taken on my first day at work as Connie; it's my employee ID. I cropped out the company name at the top, but under the picture it says "Constance McEntee" instead of "David McEntee" which had been on my original employee ID.

I'd been working at this place for a little over 6 years when I began transitioning. If the facilities guy had waited a fraction of a second longer to take the picture I'd've been laughing my head off. It was the first time I could remember being happy to be at work.

If others see a male in that picture, then that's what they see. I see a person who's just really happy.

To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 02:23:59 PM
I don't think you can really separate who you are and how you relate to other people so easily.

Gender exists for social reasons and evolved out of a social context and I don't think it is useful outside of that.

I could say I would still want to look beautiful and feminine and I'm sure I would but then it would not be particularly satisfying if nobody was around to contrast that or to notice that. It's not like I find femininity especially attractive or like I idolize it. It's just how I want to present myself to the world because it's just how I naturally am. So the physical aspects of that are definitely more social because they give people a visual representation to see how I am.

I don't know, that's a weird hypothetical because I would not be in a good emotional state if I were stranded  on an island. And how can you express yourself to yourself?

As someone who spent a lot of my childhood very alone I should say that I think it's hard to appreciate how much you are defined by how you relate to other people until you have nobody to relate to. I didn't really even know who I was until I began relating to people and seeing how I interact with them.

Thank you. I think I learned quite a bit from that answer. Just one more question, if I may.

Would you say that society is the mirror in which you see yourself reflected?

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.

Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:

Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?

It's interesting to see the differences in the way people think and feel. I find it fascinating, the individualism and perspectives. Although I apologise for being a nosey cow.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:

Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?

It's interesting to see the differences in the way people think and feel. I find it fascinating, the individualism and perspectives. Although I apologise for being a nosey cow.

I feel that my male gentials don't belong on my body, and that the flat chest is wrong. It's like I have something hanging on the front of my body that doesn't belong there, and there's something that should be hanging on my chest that's missing.

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:56:46 PM
I feel that my male gentials don't belong on my body, and that the flat chest is wrong. It's like I have something hanging on the front of my body that doesn't belong there, and there's something that should be hanging on my chest that's missing.

Thank you.

I'll go back to my ponderings now. No further questions... yet.

*melts silently into the shadows*

Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
Pretty,

My current avatar isn't, to me, a male presentation. It's a presentation of happiness.



This picture was taken on my first day at work as Connie; it's my employee ID. I cropped out the company name at the top, but under the picture it says "Constance McEntee" instead of "David McEntee" which had been on my original employee ID.

I'd been working at this place for a little over 6 years when I began transitioning. If the facilities guy had waited a fraction of a second longer to take the picture I'd've been laughing my head off. It was the first time I could remember being happy to be at work.

If others see a male in that picture, then that's what they see. I see a person who's just really happy.

To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.

Oh, sorry then 

Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Thank you. I think I learned quite a bit from that answer. Just one more question, if I may.

Would you say that society is the mirror in which you see yourself reflected?

Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:

Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?

I am not sure I totally understand the question but I think you definitely need references outside yourself to be able to judge yourself by. I don't think we are born with a strong self-image, and maybe it develops more as a result of how people react to how we present ourselves, or how we imagine they will react.

Like, for example, kids are very poorly self-aware, especially appearance-wise. They don't really care about their appearance at all until a certain age. If nobody ever reacted to how they look, would they ever even become very conscious of it themselves? I kinda doubt it, but who knows.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Yeah of course not, but if they transition to be a "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" woman don't you think that's at all inconsistent?

The question is, what is a man or woman in the most basic sense? I think wildlife documentaries will tell you more about that than actually asking people about their complex feelings

Do you feel that it's inconsistent when a cis woman like things that are (stereo)typically masculine or when a cis man likes things that are (stereo)typically feminine?

Well in the most basic sense (according to a dictionary) a man is an adult human male while a woman is an adult human female.  Except those definitions can't be the end all be all can they?  or I mean none of us would be on this site.  Sites like this wouldn't even exist.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
The sexes do exist for a reason IMO, they're not totally intangible things, because if they were no different and they all did the same things just as often, there would only be one sex to begin with, ya know?

Well they are different.  AFAB people have XX chromosomes while AMAB people have XY chromosomes.  You are confusing genetics/biology (what our make up is) with personality (who we are and what we like)

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.

When I made the decision to transition it had nothing to do with what I liked to do (I like a mixture of feminine and masculine things) but all to do with the fact that I didn't see myself as a woman at all.  No one ever said, "you shouldn't do this/should do this because you are a girl", I just knew my body was wrong.  Is that how you felt or did you simply transition to not have to deal with the stigma of being a "guy" who likes girly things?  I'm not judging at all, I'm just genuinely curious, because that is almost what it sounds like you are saying.

Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Well, of course I understand transition itself. I totally get what you mean by the metaphor. What I do have trouble wrapping my head around is what would make someone want to transition even though their first pair of shoes fit better. I mean, I am not sure about FTMs but the a lot of people in the MTF forum have for the most part had pretty successful male lives. On the MTF forum there are business owners in male-dominated fields, with wives and several children and a bunch of guy friends, etc. As someone who really never got past the start line in the male world, it's strange.

And while I am absolutely not saying they should be kept from transition or something if it's what they want, I wonder, what makes them want it in the first place if they ran so fast and so well in their old shoes? And do the new ones really even fit?

It's pretty easy to look in from the outside and say "wow your life as a man is perfect you have a wife/kids/business/friends/etc, why would you ever want to transition and be a woman?!" when you don't know the internal struggles they may have in the past or present be facing.

btw the OP is wrong about brain scans showing this. that particular part of your brain cant be imaged and they have to dissect you after you die to see it.

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 07, 2012, 10:21:49 PM
It's pretty easy to look in from the outside and say "wow your life as a man is perfect you have a wife/kids/business/friends/etc, why would you ever want to transition and be a woman?!" when you don't know the internal struggles they may have in the past or present be facing.

This.

I started full-time as Connie two days (9/16/2011) before my 23rd and final wedding anniversary (9/18/2012). My ex-wife and I did go out to dinner that night and we celebrated what we had in terms of romance and marriage, and looked forward to what we'll continue to have in terms of friendship. My full-time date will forever in my mind be linked to this last anniversary. Our divorce became final as of 8 February 2012.

For me, and I think for many, transition comes with sacrifice. And for me, those sacrifices have been necessary, however bitter they seemed at the time.