It was suggested I look around here and I did read a lot of topics, but instead of finding info to help, I'm just more confused.
1. What is gender? When I first began looking it up, the only definitions I could find where gender roles. No offence to anyone who lives in a place where their culture still believes in them, but I think they're among the most illogical things I have ever heard (and I've heard some pretty illogical things). I seriously do not believe that anything real can be based on such an illogical concept. It actually caused me a lot of problems when I first realized I felt male as well as female because I didn't (and still don't) understand why I feel the way I do. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that gender had to be something other. Yet, when I look around, I still see so many people referring to gender roles as if it has any bearing on real gender. That can't be right, can it?
Sorry if that sounds insensitive. I was raised without gender roles in a city where girls are often as vicious (or more so) than the boys in a generation where girls are sneered at for being "girly" by the only people I knew who ever mentioned gender roles in a modern day setting. They really are a foreign concept for me and I cannot comprehend them.
That said, I'm being a hypocrite because a few years ago I very strongly associated aggression with females even though I knew men (ex: my dad) could be just as aggressive. I just thought he was effeminate (and I still think he is). I have since realized that this is illogical and no longer feel that way.
Sorry for that long ramble that probably doesn't make sense. In a nut shell: What is gender? Is it really based on gender roles? If I don't believe in gender roles, why do I feel male as well as female?
2. After reading several threads, I noticed that a lot of androgynes say they feel like neither gender. I'm new to most of this terminology, so please forgive my ignorance. What is it called when someone feels like both male and female? Not in between, not neither, but both?

Welcome Edge

The second question is easier but not necessarily simple.  Feeling like both male and female, but not in between, is called "bigender" by some.  From what I've read, it seems to mean the person experiences being two genders at the same time, or else at different times or situations.

Androgyne, on the other hand, is generally meant as a single gender per person that is "between" male and female, or spans across male and female. 
These aren't exact terms though and different people will use them differently.


As for the first question... I don't think anyone really knows what gender is. It's like consciousness. It's a thing that does not really exist in a measurable way, but has almost universal importance.

Gender is two things, at the very least:

It's the set of rules society has -- whether they are laws, expected behavior, or stereotypical rules of thumb.  It is pervasive and insidious in our society.  Every time someone says "ladies and gentlemen" or calls a cat "she" by default, they are reinforcing ideas about gender.  Every time they wear clothes or take a step or speak or act in any way, they are expressing gender and performing gender, even if in very subtle unconscious ways.

Gender is also what we feel and what we do in relation to those rules.  And in some ways I think we are oversimplifying ourselves by it.

lol Hi. I recognize you from the other place. Thank you for responding.
What about males who are considered "effeminate?" They aren't any less male or any more female for it. Or females who are "butch" or "tomboy."
And why do I feel the way I do if all gender is is illogical stuff I cannot comprehend?

There are real differences between different genders.  As in, actual neurological differences.  Whether there's any more to it than that is hard to say.

It's not necessarily illogical for society to have gender roles.  If there is a good reason for there to be differences between genders (whatever that reason might be... I'm not going to guess), then maybe it makes sense to have more differences than just the neurological ones.  If there is no good reason, and the neurological differences are just a useless fluke of biology, then you're right, societal gender roles make no sense.

Undoubtably there are neurological differences, but the brain is plastic. It rewires itself on a regular basis based on experiences and practice. The change occurs in the synapses. I need to research it further. I'm just a fanboy/girl atm. 
I haven't heard of any "gender roles" that aren't illogical yet, but I admit I don't understand them enough to really make an informed decision. They go completely over my head.
lol Random story: Last night, my friend said that I had a very open mind because I don't understand gender roles (she approves). I had to correct her and explain that the only reason I don't understand them is because I have only encountered them twice: when my former MiL said I should cook my ex meals (which makes no sense because he likes to cook and I hate it) and a girl who sneered at me for being "girly" because purple supposedly has a gender (not only is purple reflected light and, therefore, cannot have a gender, but "girly" should not be an insult since it should not be shameful to be a girl).

There are neurological differences between people who have different careers too though; not so much because their different brains drove them into web development or roofing or literary criticism or podiatry but because that's what they do.  The brains of retirees who do crossword puzzles or learn musical instruments are different from those that don't.  Perform gender long enough and it affects your brain too.  The cause and effect aren't so clear.

I like purple quite a lot.  Sometimes I wear it just because it's purple; sometimes I wear it because it goes with other things; sometimes I wear it because it *doesn't* go with things.

Samuel L. Jackson also has purple as a favorite color.  Unless he is hiding something, I don't think that is related to anything gender-ish about him.

But society insists that purple is girly.  And it's ingrained enough that sometimes I use it as a statement about gender myself, and I have the expectation that a guy wearing a lot of purple is either deliberately ignoring the gender stereotype or is using it as one, or both.

I always wear people, the kids tell it's a girl's colour but I tell them it belongs to royalty and chocolate.

Purple, not people.

If I wore people then a colour would be the least of my problems.

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 07, 2012, 10:50:46 AM
I always wear people, the kids tell it's a girl's colour but I tell them it belongs to royalty and chocolate.

That typo is both mildly funny and disturbing at the same time.

Glad to know you don't wear people, Pica. That would be a little Silence of the Lambs.
Precisely the point I was getting at, Foosnark. Neuroplasticity is fascinating.  Sorry I'm not good at words.

Don't feel lost, edge.  There are a gazillion different paths to get where you want to go.  Take your time and enjoy the journey.

 - I don't think the trans would like this, but I think gender is largely a developed thing - like the taxi drivers who learn The Knowledge and so have different brainstructures, that we are rewarded and punished for what have evolved into gender specific behaviours.

As andros, we have somehow avoided/perverted this process much to our awkwardness.

Quote from: foosnark on April 07, 2012, 08:18:35 AM
There are neurological differences between people who have different careers too though; not so much because their different brains drove them into web development or roofing or literary criticism or podiatry but because that's what they do.

Presumably natural talents and interests influence somebody's career path too.  There's causes and effects going every which way.

As far as I know the gender differences in brains are too small to detect in a living brain.  That's too bad; it'd be interesting to track the development and maybe get a clue about how much of it is nurture and how much is nature.

Quote from: DrillQuip on April 07, 2012, 06:15:22 PM
I've been wondering the same thing lately. Been reading a book called "Delusions of Gender". Might be worth a read if you haven't gotten into it yet.

http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

Excellent book! Scientifically demonstrates how so many of the "differences between genders" are socially constructed as opposed to inherent.

Z

Thanks for the book recommendation!
While I believe that the "nature vs nurture" argument is mostly moot, it would be interesting to find out if people have a genetic predisposition for personality. It just seems a little weird how uncannily similar me and my dad are and how similar my mom and my sister are in personality. Meanwhile, my brother's similar to me and my dad, but is a little different because he didn't go through the same things.
From what I've read and watched, "natural talents" and interests are largely developed during adolescence. (Not that adolescence is the only time they can be.)
If gender really is only the stereotypes, then there is no reason I should feel the way I do. Therefore, I do not feel the way I think I do. Therefore, I am a stupid fake and I despise stupid fakes. Wow. I hate myself.
Either that or I do feel the way I do in which case I still despise myself for being that stupid and being a hypocrite for reinforcing gender roles I've barely even encountered. I HATE people like that. I want to crush something.

My two cents, not that i am an expert, but this is what i have come to belive.

• Sex = physical (Male vs Female vs etc.),
  Gender = emotional (Feminine vs Masculine vs etc.)
  What is considered as the ideal feminine/masculine is defined by each individual culture based on what that culture considers valuable, and is often the subject of heated debate. (Wikipedia).

hope this helps to clear your mind.  Hugs.

Edge, Most people just live as themselves gender is only an issue when people "punish" somebody for not doing it right for your perceived gender punishment may be anything from being called a sissy to being told that boys don't cry to being laughed at or attacked when ever your not trying to hide yourself.
well that was how I realized I wasn't a real boy,  The rules of gender were hard for me to follow so I felt wrong.  I never got the guys with most things growing but had some traits that are sterotypically Male  so I saw myself as both & still do mostly.  I'm not sure if that answers your first question
2.  There are a number of different ways to feel like both genders if you feel lie you have 2 almost separate genders and you can separate them he likes this & she likes that then Bigender may be your term of choice If you see yourself as being a mixture of both then intergender maybe more your scene or if you see yourself as more the Male & Female then Pangendered or Omnigedered.
I see myself as both genders and sometimes too much gender I prefer the Intergender Label but feel like no label fits
I'm just me the important thing with labels Is that you don't change who you are to fit the label & you don't need to hold onto a label after you out grow it.
androgyne & genderqueer can be helpful terms for finding others but are too big for me to say I am this   

1. The thing, I rarely encountered punishment because of gender or even encountered the "rules" of gender. Just stupid girls calling me "girly" as if it's an insult. (I am physically female.) The only thing that did was make me think they're stupid. The punishment I did receive for being myself was individual to me and is probably the reason I don't feel something else.
On another note, "boys don't cry?" I thought the stereotype was that men were strong, not weaklings who can't even face their own emotions. Oops. (Not saying I believe the stereotype, but I have heard of it.)
2. Haha I couldn't change who I am if I tried neither do I want to. I just want to understand what is going on and that is so much easier if I have language to help organize my thoughts.

I'm glad it's not possible to detect gender in the brain; it would be used as another kind of gatekeeping for transition, and an expensive one at that.  And they'd probably arbitrarily categorize people in a binary way, even for those that fell in between or were off somewhere else or had none... just as they do with sex by visually inspect infant genitalia.  They'd probably try to "correct" the brain in a heavy-handed way with drugs or surgery, too.

Personally, I do not believe it is possible to categorize people by their brains in a binary way considering how diverse are brains are from each other and how they constantly change. I would love to study my brain like that though. Not necessarily for gender. Just to see what I look like. Sorry I am a brain fanperson. I hope to be a neuroscientist eventually. I may be dumb when it comes to gender, but I am book smart.