This is really turning out to be a majorly sh!tty day! The main thing that's really bugging me right now is just a little while ago, someone I really looked up to said something kind of sh!tty to me. He said something really sexist, about how all women are bad, but of course, not as nicely as I put it. So I called him on it and said that ain't right plenty of men are messed up too and do messed up stuff. Then he says my man card's been revoked. Now wtf? I don't know if he thinks he's being funny, or if he sincerely means disrespect there. But that pissed me off, especially coming from someone I looked up to and respected. I've heard stuff like that before, from transguys about the whole fitting in with cis guys. And it just makes me feel like I can't even have any friends in my life because I'm a transguy and don't have the same hatred and disrespect for women that cis guys have. So since I'm not a total sexist, hate-filled a-hole, I'm not a real man and am never going to be accepted as a man huh?!? And this is the first time I've really run into that, because pretty much all my friends have been accepting of me and I usually pass as a guy and haven't had any problems with anyone until that incident today. And another one of my closest friends hasn't responded to me at all, so it just makes me feel even more like WTF? Is everyone turning against me all of a sudden?

And then something else that just makes me wonder WTF? I got a weird call at 9 am this morning from someone asking for me (by my new name) about a 3-day-long job. It seems sketchy though, like for real it doesn't sound all that legit. But the thing is, is that I've been on monster.com before, many years ago, under my birth name, with the exact same information - same address, same education level, same experience, same references - and never once was contacted by anyone. I put up the same information, with my male name, and a day later someone calls me? Really? It's like that, is it? Man = good & acceptable; Woman = crap & no good.

WTF is wrong with this world? It all makes me feel like not even trying, like it's pointless to be alive at all. Like I just need to hole off in the woods or a deserted island and not talk to anyone ever again because all I'll ever be is thought of as scum and not up to par with everybody else. I'm in a really bad mood right now. 

I hated how men would talk one way together but then with women they talked another.. i am glad to be gone from that scene..  however, i do have to say i fond mennonite males to be refreshingly kind and non sexist.. move to near where they live..

Quote from: thefire on April 11, 2012, 12:59:54 PMSo since I'm not a total sexist, hate-filled a-hole, I'm not a real man and am never going to be accepted as a man huh?!?

Misogyny isn't a pre-requisite of being a man, hon. It's actually more indicative of the individual's state of mind and prior life experiences than any sort of gender defining trait. That person is like that for a reason. Maybe he had a bad experience with an ex or something, or his neighbour's dog crapped all over his back yard and she wouldn't clean it up. But that's certainly not the norm, nor is it something you should aspire to be in order to fit in. *hug*

Without knowing the nuances of your conversation, I'm inclined to think that his remark was just incredibly insensitive and he had no idea how it would make you feel. I've seen groups of guys be like that with each other, they think it's funny. Insulting each other is often endearing, in some perverse way. If anything, I suspect that he'd forgotten you were a transguy and was just talking to you as he would any other guy.

I usunally tend to grin alittle by those men,
cause I know guys who talk s*** about women, only get's stupid girls.

the trust is, men are pretty good to talk like they know everything of what they don't know.

what a pity..

btw, of corse it dosen't include ALL men, theres few good exemples out there..
<----  if you know what I mean

Quote from: Sephirah on April 11, 2012, 01:15:56 PM
Misogyny isn't a pre-requisite of being a man

I know that, but I don't think the rest of the world knows it. That comment really shook me up and makes me feel like I'll never truly fit in the way I wanted to. And by that, I mean, I wanted to be able to go through my life like a normal person, being seen as someone who is as good as everyone else, because I've sure been made to feel like I'm the lowest crap on earth throughout my (female) life and I thought that life would be over once I got all the way over on the other side of my transition. But that leads me to think that it will never be over, and that I'll always be looked down on, sneered at, given a hassle and rejected by others because I can't fill myself with the same deeply ingrained hatred and prejudiced views that cis men have.

Quote from: thefire on April 11, 2012, 01:37:00 PM
But that leads me to think that it will never be over, and that I'll always be looked down on, sneered at, given a hassle and rejected by others because I can't fill myself with the same deeply ingrained hatred and prejudiced views that cis men have.

This is my point though, as the saying goes "one swallow doesn't make a summer". Not all cis men have those views. Some do, yes, but as I said, that's more often than not a result of what's happened to them in their lives.

How many guys who are in a stable, happy, loving relationship with a woman, for example, do you suppose are mysogenistic and actively hate them? As opposed to the dude who got his tyres slashed, or his clothes cut up, or his CD collection torched because he was caught cheating by his now ex-girlfriend one weekend while she was supposed to be away. Or the guy who was out at a nightclub with his mates, tried to hit on a girl, and she humiliated him in front of everyone?

Hatred and predjudice very often have a root cause. Something specific which makes a person feel the way they do. It doesn't make you less of a man because you don't feel that way, hon. And there are many, many other guys who feel the same way you do.

Have you talked to him about what he said? Maybe he was just being really thick, and didn't realise what he said would upset you, rather than being intentionally malicious in any way.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 11, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
How many guys who are in a stable, happy, loving relationship with a woman, for example, do you suppose are mysogenistic and actively hate them?

I never thought of it that way. Maybe I'm still thinking from my bad experiences, being that I am and always have been attracted to men. Being from the other side of the coin (as a female that has had relationships with men), the statements that got to me made me wonder how any self respecting woman could be with a man, because he's just going to say all kinds of crap behind her back about how she's inherently evil, stupid, messed up, and so forth. And it made me sick, to think of men pretending to love and be good to women, all the while hating them and putting them down to others. But I suppose you're right, or at least that kind of two-faced behavior wouldn't happen in a stable and healthy relationship.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 11, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
Have you talked to him about what he said? Maybe he was just being really thick, and didn't realise what he said would upset you, rather than being intentionally malicious in any way.

Actually, I've gotten a few more texts here, sounds like he was kidding and being a smart*ss, not trying to be insulting.

Quote from: thefire on April 11, 2012, 01:37:00 PM
I know that, but I don't think the rest of the world knows it. That comment really shook me up and makes me feel like I'll never truly fit in the way I wanted to. And by that, I mean, I wanted to be able to go through my life like a normal person, being seen as someone who is as good as everyone else, because I've sure been made to feel like I'm the lowest crap on earth throughout my (female) life and I thought that life would be over once I got all the way over on the other side of my transition. But that leads me to think that it will never be over, and that I'll always be looked down on, sneered at, given a hassle and rejected by others because I can't fill myself with the same deeply ingrained hatred and prejudiced views that cis men have.

Well life is never easy for nobody and everybody has problems.
after transition you also have problems, there just usunally alittle diffrent but we dont have or get problemfree life.

but you know what dosent kill you makes you stronger, and I belive the hard fight transpeople do is making a good efford in the right dirrection. you shouldnt deny your extra knowlegde you have got to becoming something less just to fit in.
I have same problem, I find it pretty hard to fit in with the typical young people, there just so diffrent from me, there life experience and everything. Many people just want to fit in, But it dosent feel good to try fitting in by not including yourself and why just do as everybody ells, insteed of whats really matters?.

yeah
it actually pretty annoying being smart or having alot of knowlegde people cant follow, I learned that pretty early
but you must take it on a positive way,
its can be a pain but also a tresure to understand both points of a sake.

it can sure be a pain because people wont understand,
but on the other hand you can also take your way a step forward, compared to other people and put up a impression.
ex I always belived (in my little mind) that ftm would be good at hooking up women because they would feel it more easy to read there moves, and so than bio guys, who only hang around other guys..
and for gay people, it would be more easy to have friendship with girls..

stuff like that.. I am sure you can find some exemples yourself where you can use the extra knowlegde life had though you on a good way.

NatKat, I didn't expect to have a problem-free life, I just thought things would be better once I got to the other side of where I want to be after fully transitioning. I thought, and still do expect it to be better to just be seen as male. To go through life being just another person in the world, instead of being seen as ugly, a dyke, a he/she, an it, a thing, and everything else people see me as. I've expected it to be better once I get to the other side, that I could go through life pretty much free from harassment.

Quote from: thefire on April 11, 2012, 02:38:04 PM
NatKat, I didn't expect to have a problem-free life, I just thought things would be better once I got to the other side of where I want to be after fully transitioning. I thought, and still do expect it to be better to just be seen as male. To go through life being just another person in the world, instead of being seen as ugly, a dyke, a he/she, an it, a thing, and everything else people see me as. I've expected it to be better once I get to the other side, that I could go through life pretty much free from harassment.

I cant speak from everyone,
personally I did get better on the "other side" simply being seen as male made me feel better.
but I still have the harassment thing its just diffrent.. before I was on a how boyish and maculine I am, pointed out
now its how femenine and girly I am.
I am glad you didnt expect it to be problemless just pointing out that theres still problems also after transition ex like what you mention with the sexism stuff. Before I transitioned I didnt really notice this that much probably because I manly where seen as a girl so I didnt get into those conversations.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 11, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
This is my point though, as the saying goes "one swallow doesn't make a summer". Not all cis men have those views. Some do, yes, but as I said, that's more often than not a result of what's happened to them in their lives.

How many guys who are in a stable, happy, loving relationship with a woman, for example, do you suppose are mysogenistic and actively hate them? As opposed to the dude who got his tyres slashed, or his clothes cut up, or his CD collection torched because he was caught cheating by his now ex-girlfriend one weekend while she was supposed to be away. Or the guy who was out at a nightclub with his mates, tried to hit on a girl, and she humiliated him in front of everyone?

Hatred and predjudice very often have a root cause. Something specific which makes a person feel the way they do. It doesn't make you less of a man because you don't feel that way, hon. And there are many, many other guys who feel the same way you do.

Have you talked to him about what he said? Maybe he was just being really thick, and didn't realise what he said would upset you, rather than being intentionally malicious in any way.

I would say most men, actually. Like it or not, men brought up as male tend to overwhelmingly have a misogynist attitude; whether at home, in the workplace, social spaces or otherwise. Misogyny does not mean actively hating women. Misogyny is the belief (albeit subconscious for many) that women are inferior physical and/or intellectual to men. That women "think differently," that women must inhabit certain gender roles, must dress a certain way, or that men must have certain interests, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours that stop them from being "pussies." Even if they aren't called "pussies," it's the social implications. This is rampant still today. I also think thefire has a right to express his feelings and experiences, rather than have people tell him "most men aren't like that." Because that isn't reality. Our society is still extremely misogynist. For transguys it comes down to trying to reconciliate how they are the victims of misogyny in society while also truly being male yet misinterpreted as female. For some it results in perpetuating that misogyny themselves in order to be seen as "more of a man," while others fail to see that the behaviour is not just hurtful because they are a transguy, but that the behaviour is hurtful and wrong period. To me its a struggle I see a lot of transguys having, and definitely something that needs to be talked about instead of dismissed as "well, there really isn't that much misogyny in the world," when that isn't true at all.

Quote from: Berserk on April 11, 2012, 03:33:51 PMTo me its a struggle I see a lot of transguys having, and definitely something that needs to be talked about instead of dismissed as "well, there really isn't that much misogyny in the world," when that isn't true at all.

I didn't actually say that. I said not all guys are like that, or have those views.

And I wasn't intending to be dismissive of anything, but I take your points and apologise if it came across that way. Sorry for sticking my nose in.

I hope you feel better, thefire.

I would say most men, actually. Like it or not, men brought up as male tend to overwhelmingly have a misogynist attitude; whether at home, in the workplace, social spaces or otherwise. Misogyny does not mean actively hating women. Misogyny is the belief (albeit subconscious for many) that women are inferior physical and/or intellectual to men. That women "think differently," that women must inhabit certain gender roles, must dress a certain way
which prove that you knowlegde of women is very limited if you belive so

, or that men must have certain interests, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours that stop them from being "pussies." Even if they aren't called "pussies," it's the social implications.
and which prove your a pussy, if you have to put others down to fell accepted

I understand your anger and frustration, but honestly dont waste your time on idiots..

my friend just had a discussion with a guy about men vs women at work, and he comented her with a:
"wow, your really good with a discussions, you know why? because you dont get angry, when I prove your wrong"
she simply replied; "of corse not, no need to be angry when I know im right.."

try not to let it get to you, because you just know better, that they dont isnt your fault.

Another thing too is that when a lot of people hear the word misogyny they think of a ranting sexist that wants a return to 50's era gender roles and for women to be barefoot and pregnant, etc.  Or a guy that actively hates women and wishes harm on them.   However, the attitudes that misogyny encompasses are often a lot more subtle than that.  Those are the ones that unfortunately most guys have (even us).   Just because of the unfortunately still sexist society we live in.

And you know what I'm talking about.  The little, pervasive stuff like women aren't as good at math, or women are only interested in shoes and makeup, or that all women do is talk and what a drag it is to listen to them or really anything like that.   Not saying everyone holds all of these beliefs, but you're hard pressed to find anyone, man or woman, that doesn't have at least one of them rolling around, lurking in the back of their mind somewhere.

ive found that only cismale ass holes are sexist a lot of my guy friends are very respectful of women.