*face palm*

Quote from: Rabbit on April 11, 2012, 10:46:34 PM
So... "normal" people can get all these surgeries without a therapist (because they have major self esteme issues, or looking for attention, or any other reason...good or not)... but, if we trans people want the surgery, it is because something might be wrong with our brains?

I see where you're coming from, and I think you have a good point. But I don't think most "normal" people opt to have major reconstructive surgery in an attempt to look like the other gender. Yes, many people get a nose job or a face lift or whatever, but like I said, that's not what I was really talking about.

He face palmed, people.
That means someone said something stupid.

Quote from: JoeyD on April 11, 2012, 11:00:18 PM
He face palmed, people.
That means someone said something stupid.

haha!!! It does. I wanna know who!!

It was me wasn't it. It's usually me

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 10:56:55 PM
I see where you're coming from, and I think you have a good point. But I don't think most "normal" people opt to have major reconstructive surgery in an attempt to look like the other gender. Yes, many people get a nose job or a face lift or whatever, but like I said, that's not what I was really talking about.

Oh, yea...they don't have it to look like another gender. They get chin implants, cheek implants, nose jobs... and all the other fun stuff because they want to look more pretty. They inject botox into their muscles so they look younger. They get face-lifts because they can't stand how they look.

But, all of that is ok because they aren't trans? They can do it because they have serious daddy issues and low self esteme.. and that is totally ok.

But, if they get it to look like another gender? Woaaa, that is when it becomes crazy?

Again, I don't know why we are so special. People do stuff all the time for HORRIBLE reasons. Deep mental issues that can be sorted out with therapy... but we let them do what they choose.

But, trans people... we are assumed to have mental problems? So, it is ok for us?

It's not because we have some sort of mental problem imo. I think it's just a case of whether somebody can really make it in this world as their target gender in a psychological capacity. I could point to a few people on this board as exhibits but... I'm not that catty

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 11:01:11 PM
haha!!! It does. I wanna know who!!

It was me wasn't it. It's usually me

Awh no, not you!!!!! You're fine (:
YOU BETTER TURN THAT FROWN UPSIDE DOWN!!

It's just the whole comparing transition to dare devils or other irrelevant things.
When I read all this I go v________v

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 11:03:33 PM
It's not because we have some sort of mental problem imo. I think it's just a case of whether somebody can really make it in this world as their target gender in a psychological capacity. I could point to a few people on this board as exhibits but... I'm not that catty

Well... being trans is still seen as a mental defect...soo....

I don't understand what you mean by "make it in this world as their target gender in psychological capacity" though?

One of my female teachers is the most crude person you have ever met... she dresses like a guy, talks like a sailor.... soo....I really can't wrap my head around what type of psychological capacity is needed to be a woman :|

Quote from: Rabbit on April 11, 2012, 11:08:15 PM
One of my female teachers is the most crude person you have ever met... she dresses like a guy, talks like a sailor.... soo....I really can't wrap my head around what type of psychological capacity is needed to be a woman :|

Basically, in a zero sum whatever, are less happy as a female than as a male.

Quote from: Jayr on April 11, 2012, 11:07:07 PM
Awh no, not you!!!!! You're fine (:
YOU BETTER TURN THAT FROWN UPSIDE DOWN!!

Aww ♥ ... ok

Hehe sorry sorry, I just get riled up when our own community wants to keep transgendered people in the world of "something is mentally wrong with this person because they are trans! who knows what else is wrong in their heads, probably lots" ...

I just strongly reject the idea that I'm mentally unfit because I am transgendered.... sorry.

Quote from: Rabbit on April 11, 2012, 11:12:28 PM
Hehe sorry sorry, I just get riled up when our own community wants to keep transgendered people in the world of "something is mentally wrong with this person because they are trans! who knows what else is wrong in their heads, probably lots" ...

I just strongly reject the idea that I'm mentally unfit because I am transgendered.... sorry.

I can totally understand that. I know exactly what I want. More now than ever, thanks to HRT and RLE (which, btw I did mention shouldn't need a psychs approval).

i do not find gatekeepers as a bad idea and I do not believe that transgender is a mental disorder. I know this because I had to take a psychiatric exam in order to be ordain. If I did not pass that exam, I pretty much could not be a pastor.

So, for me, it has nothing to do with mental disorders even though I will disagree heavily over a comment that all transwomen are mentally fine and dandy. But that's for another thread all together. 

It has to do with having someone to talk to in order to make sure you are making a right decision.

If you want to go into your transition without support then that's you're prerogative. 

If someone wants to go into transition with support and seek guidance along the way, there is nothing wrong with that either.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 10:56:55 PM
I see where you're coming from, and I think you have a good point. But I don't think most "normal" people opt to have major reconstructive surgery in an attempt to look like the other gender. Yes, many people get a nose job or a face lift or whatever, but like I said, that's not what I was really talking about.

Other people have just as drastic surgery to look VERY different than they do. How is that ANY different?

http://starcasm.net/archives/23945

She doesn't even look like the same person yet no one asked her to go through a bunch of psychotherapy. I could find much more extreme example of people with small, ugly chins having as massive of surgery as any MTF. I girl I know had her jaw broken and wired back to get rid of a slight overbite she had.

The difference here is cisgender people can't fathom wanting to change genders so they make up special rules for trans people because clearly we are all crazy. For that matter we are in the DSM and people on this forum are constantly cheering that we are! O.o

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 11:03:33 PM
It's not because we have some sort of mental problem imo.

That is exactly what this is.

You do realize to get even a hormone letter you MUST be diagnosed as having "gender identity disorder" which is a mental disorder in the DSM don't you? Unless you are diagnosed as having this metal problem, you won't get HRT. Much less GRS. And people here are trying to promote extending this to FFS? THAT is a big >face palm<

Quote from: Annah on April 12, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
i do not find gatekeepers as a bad idea and I do not believe that transgender is a mental disorder.

It has to do with having someone to talk to in order to make sure you are making a right decision.

OK lets stick to the facts here OK? To get a hormone letter you have to be diagnose as having GID. You do realize GID is "Gender identity DISORDER" correct? You HAVE been diagnosed as having a mental disorder if you got a hormone letter or apporval for GRS. From what you just posted I'm not sure you realize this.

I recall recently Annah you argued AGAINST removing transgender from the DSM. I'm sorry girl, you can't have it both ways. You can't be for trans being in the DSM as a mental disorder and then also say you don't feel it is a mental disorder.

All this crap with gatekeepers is centered around it being a mental disorder!

That the "gatekeeping" process seems to be working for me is not the same as saying it works in general.

My understanding of my gender identity evolved over a long time, with the bulk of that understanding solidifying in the last 3 years. During that time I turned to 3 therapists (2 individual, 1 marriage), 5 clergy persons (3 Congregational/UCC, 1 Unitarian Universalist, and 1 Soto Zen), and 2 clergy interns (Congregational/UCC) for support.

Work with the first individual therapist stopped when it seemed the issue I had brought forth, depression, had been solved. Part of that solution was when I determined that I was androgyne/genderqueer/genderfluid. I began working with the second therapist at the suggestion of the marriage therapist, as she felt my then-wife and I would benefit from having personal therapists while in marriage therapy. It turns out, the marriage therapist was right.

I had another bout of extreme depression (usually considered a mental health issue) that stemmed from the fact that I was in the wrong body. Discussing this with my second therapist led to me starting transition, a decision that I made and she supported me in that decision.

This therapist, the marriage therapist, and the Zen priest got me through what was possible the deepest depression of my life, after my then-wife said she wanted a divorce. I was on Craigslist and eBay shopping for a gun to kill myself. This, too, is typically seen as a mental health problem. The UU and UCC clergy and interns also helped me a great deal throughout 2011.

In my case, I think it could be argued that I had mental health issues. These issues were, to me, side-effects of GID.

But, that's just my case. It seems to me that there are as many ways to transition as there are people who transition. What works for some won't work for others. If I want hormones prescribed by a US endocrinologist, it seems I have to go through these steps. Likewise if I want SRS with a US surgeon. However, I have discovered that there are ways to get hormones online, and there are non-US surgeons who don't require the letters, surgeons who seem to be well-respected, too.

For the time being, I am choosing to follow the guidelines as described in WPATH's Standards of Care. That is my decision.

In reading the responses to the thread, it seems that things have drifted away from the efficacy, or lack thereof, of such a system purely on its own merits, and whether it actually provides any form of benefit for the individual, into a sort of instinctive resentment that it's only applied to one specific group of people and not to everyone.

While this is understandable in this context, and one could pose the question of whether these processes would still be seen as grossly unfair and invasive if everyone were suddenly treated the same and the cause of that resentment was removed, that's purely hypothetical and is something entirely different to what I feel is the point of the thread. Namely that such a system has benefitted some people quite aside from why and how it's implemented, that there's a clear difference in experiences of people using it, and that one term isn't something which should be applied in a blanket statement based on bad experiences not shared by everyone.

Before this denigrates into ad hominem attacks and becomes personal, I'd just like to point out that just because someone doesn't share your view, that doesn't make it any less valid. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And if one doesn't agree with someone else's view, at least respect it.

Quote from: Stephe on April 12, 2012, 09:17:03 PM
That is exactly what this is.

You do realize to get even a hormone letter you MUST be diagnosed as having "gender identity disorder" which is a mental disorder in the DSM don't you? Unless you are diagnosed as having this metal problem, you won't get HRT. Much less GRS. And people here are trying to promote extending this to FFS? THAT is a big >face palm<

Actually, that's a fallacy.. I have no diagnosis of GID.. The referral my psychiatrist wrote to the gynaecologist who manages my hormones simply stated that I 'was a good candidate for hormonal reassignment.'

I'm a strong supporter of the WPATH SoC's being followed.. The current version does suggest that a therapist do an assessment prior to HRT, but there is no longer any requirement for any period of therapy.. I think this is a good idea - as others of mentioned there are other issues that can manifest in similar ways - and not ones that transition will actually help..

WPATH are also very supportive of the idea that transsexualism is not a mental illness. I don't think it is either. I started seeing my therapist knowing that transition was what I needed. All he's really done along the way was make sure that I was fully aware of the decision I was making - and that I was ready to cope with what comes with, both good and bad.

As for RLE being required before SRS, I support this.. I wonder how many have realised that transition or SRS is not going to make them any happier during this period? I wonder how many of them have detransitioned?

As far as my psychiatrist or gynaecologist go, I'd not call them gatekeepers.. The gates have always been open to me, I just needed to be ready to walk through them.. I haven't technically met the requirements for having done 12 months RLE, but my surgery letter is available to me whenever I want it..

As to those of you who've had bad experiences with medical 'professionals'? Go find another one and have a chat to the appropriate Professional Association along the way..

I got to skip steps 'cause I'm pretty... I mean: "I can easily integrate as my target gender." Yay, gatekeeping?

The criteria used is so totally random. I mean, it's great some people got something out of it... but why couldn't you just go see a therapist for help with gender issues? Why do they need to hold the power for that to be a useful relationship? Personally, I feel less inclined to lie to people who aren't standing in judgement over me, who don't control my future.

Quote from: Annah on April 12, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
i do not find gatekeepers as a bad idea and I do not believe that transgender is a mental disorder. I know this because I had to take a psychiatric exam in order to be ordain. If I did not pass that exam, I pretty much could not be a pastor.

I had to take a psych exam in order to transition... I wonder what would have happened if I'd failed it. Maybe I'd have gotten help... or maybe I'd be dead. People are funny, delicate things. How many get a bad therapist and go home and slit their wrists?

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 12, 2012, 10:23:04 PM
I got to skip steps 'cause I'm pretty... I mean: "I can easily integrate as my target gender." Yay, gatekeeping?

The criteria used is so totally random. I mean, it's great some people got something out of it... but why couldn't you just go see a therapist for help with gender issues? Why do they need to hold the power for that to be a useful relationship? Personally, I feel less inclined to lie to people who aren't standing in judgement over me, who don't control my future.

I had to take a psych exam in order to transition... I wonder what would have happened if I'd failed it. Maybe I'd have gotten help... or maybe I'd be dead. People are funny, delicate things. How many get a bad therapist and go home and slit their wrists?

Doesn't that speak more to the specific quality of the care, not the relevance of the process, though?   

It is really interesting to me how varied people's experiences are.  It also highlights how inconsistent the application of SoC can be from provider to provider.

The one thing I went into all of this with was a very consumer-centric mentality.  I shopped for a solid therapist with experience and interviewed several before making a decision.  It was a bit funny to watch the reactions of a few I did not choose.  There was a real, "Why are you asking me all these questions?" reaction.  I was pretty honest with them that I was absolutely judging their ability to be helpful and engage in productive therapy with me, much in the same fashion I would if I were getting my vehicle repaired, or hiring any professional to provide any service.  This did not sit well with more than a few of them, and I immediately discounted them as potential therapists.  When my current therapist responded by detailing her experience, producing authorized testimonials and encouraging me to grill her on specifics such as process and goals, I knew she "got it" and was going to be a partner and advocate with and for me, not just someone I was paying to go through the motions.

I guess my point is, if you run into a crappy service provider, find another one.  You are the consumer here, you are the one with the decision-making power and authority around how you engage in the process.  I'm 2 months in, and have my letter for HRT, with zero speed bumps.  I believe pretty strongly that the lack of those bumps has in large part been due to me taking the time to find the right resource for me.

No-one condemns the entire auto-repair industry because they got a ->-bleeped-<-ty brake job at a single garage.  They just find a better garage.

-Miki