I just thought this was interesting... how closely this mirrors our own sittuation.... in soooo many ways.

Homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until the 1970's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFSCPTZLxGs&feature=player_embedded#!

  Yeah I saw this before, it's interesting to see how people viewed things back then. Looks like it's gonna be awhile before transsexualism is accepted by society as more then just a mental illness. Sadly I think the majority of people still see us as nutcases.   

lol... a documentary was on about this at my clinic today. The things they were talking about... god, so inhumane. Humans can be so disgusting.

I think it is important for the trans community to keep in their minds...

I see the same things happening with us now. Trans people who (like homosexuals back then) feel they really are mentally ill...

After reading that thread about "gatekeepers", I found it so sad how some of us were almost happy that we were classified as mentally ill. That they had (like homosexuals back then) accepted the professional diagnosis that there was something WRONG with being what we are... as if this wasn't simply one manifestation of the very normal gender spectrum.

The lack of self esteem is so apparent in our community. Everywhere we look being trans is treated as just a joke... so it is easy to understand how so many of us have simply come to accept what society is telling us...

I think the trans community needs to start getting a little pride in being what they are.

I, for one, think being trans is beautiful. I'm proud to stand up and say I'm transgendered. I can confidently stand up and say there is nothing wrong with me and my mind is not "broken"... I am simply further on the female side of the gender spectrum, how is that a "disorder"?

Being different does NOT mean wrong.... it does NOT mean we have a "gender identity disorder"... my gender identity is actually quite clear and to claim it is a disorder is to say humans shouldn't be like this (which, we know from looking at history and other cultures is COMPLETELY false).

Thank you, Rabbit, this NEEDS to be said.

I think that some things, such as irreversible surgery, should have some gatekeeping, but that's for obvious reasons. And I suggest that all should go to therapy to help them with transition and all the emotional woes that can go with it. And I wholeheartedly agree, and think, that there is a medical reason as to why we are trans to begin with.

But having said all that, I think, most of all, we need to be proud of who we are, if for no other reason, that to be proud that I am not ashamed to be trans*. The cis gay community is not proud of BEING homosexual, per se, but they are proud of who they are as humans, that they can hold their heads up high and shout, "No!" with blood and thunder at those people that would have them believe to be subhuman.

This is true in many sub-cultures, particularly the deaf community. Do they posses a disability or a birth defect? Yes, technically they do, but that's not the point. They argue that their "weakness" is their greatest strength. It's about diversity, about rising about adversity.

And it should be that way with us. We are deserving of pride. Ad astra, per aspera!

Whilst I don't think that transsexualism is a MENTAL illness, I still believe it has to be some kind of issue. Be it a brain malformation, a neurological problem, the aftereffect of an uterine hormone disbalance or something else, I don't believe it to be anything good to have or normal.

I wouldn't really relate it to the situation of homosexuals in regards to treatment from psychiatrists and such, since we, contrarily to them, absolutely require, in part of the cases, at least, medical attention such as hormones and/or surgery to survive with an acceptable mental health.

I don't know about other people of the transgender spectrum, but it's not like transsexuals, at least not I, would suddenly feel better if society were okay with our changing social roles. If that sufficed, we simply wouldn't be transsexuals, by definition. My body is just as harmful to me as how people view me, if not more.

That being said, in my book, anyone who requires medical intervention to function normally has some sort of health issue. Homosexuals, however do not need any medical treatment, except maybe psychotherapy to treat damage caused by segregation, but apart from that, just like any other normal human being, they just need acceptance to be happy.

I'm not saying that I agree with how everything works right now, but I still don't think that transsexualism is a good thing. If one day, they were to discover a way to diagnose a transsexual before birth and prevent them from being a transsexual with hormone injections or something, assuming I would somehow be pregnant, I would be the first to ask for it.

I don't think we should be ashamed of what we are, just like someone with a missing leg shouldn't be ashamed having had a prothesis put on it. But I definitely don't think we should be proud either. Being proud of something means you think you are lucky you got it, that it somehow makes you feel better than others.

Of course, I dream of a world where saying "I'm a transsexual" wouldn't have any more effect than saying "I had a missing leg compensated for". But I definitely don't think that a place where transsexuals willingly place themselves in a different envelope than the rest of society is much of an improvement.

Again, I'm not including any non-transsexual transgendered individual who require an envelope different than male and female or an enlargement of the definition of either in this line of thought, since contrarily to transsexuals, their goal is not exactly to "become as (fe)male as possible", but to become something in-between or something else.

QuoteI think it's difficult for a lot of us to get past the pain. Being trans hurt so much for so long, I have a hard time feeling more than rage and horror about it. I hated myself so much...

But, look at the homosexuals from the past... they felt a veryyyyy similar type of shame and pain and self hate. Suicide rates for the homosexuals were much higher than normal people as well... they would subject themselves to HORRIBLE procedures to try and cure themselves.....

It... is just so so so so similar to many of the things we feel.


Here is the thing with claiming this is a birth defect or medical condition...

The hormones and surgeries have only been an extremely recent thing.... but, transgendered people have been around for a VERY long time throughout history.

Does our condition REALLY need massive surgeries? And medication? Of course, this is a very difficult thing to say... considering we are living in the culture we find ourselves...

But, when I think about the american indians and transgendered people within those tribes (or other cultures before they had surgeries and hormones)... it seems transgendered people WERE able to live (seemingly happily) without them.

What does this mean? Well... it means this entire issue is very clouded with acceptance and society and how we are thinking about things (just like the homosexuals used to consider themselves sick because they felt such anxiety, shame, fear... as if those things were confirmations that their minds were broken... all the while those things were really brought on by society and the message the homosexual had understood).

Either way, to say this is a medical condition that absolutely needs hormones and surgeries ...is impossible. Sure, that is how we treat it here in this society. Then again, if you look at the history of medicine (or medicine today)... you will see many things treated in very poor ways.

Personally, I think hormones make things a little better... but, then again, sometimes I question if I NEED them to live. I wonder I had found myself in a different / more accepting society from the start where i could express myself.... if I could have simply been happy to embrace my feminine side as fully and openly as I desired without judgement (instead of here, where I had felt it necessary to live as male in public, and only allow feminine aspects of myself to manifest in private).

I have a hard time believing that even in such a dreamy society, I would feel much better. I still have a noxious piece of flesh between my legs. I still had (until a few weeks ago, when I started HRT) a libido that destroyed any happiness I had every time it came. I still have hair growing everywhere that feels just like parasitic mushrooms of dirt. I still have huge muscles I hate. The list goes on and on.

Of course, society has an impact, but I refuse to believe that all the sadness I live is just because of others. I feel bad when I sit alone in my bathroom or living room, too.

As for history, I don't believe it's as pink as that. In my opinion, people who lived happily despite their status were either:

-Not transsexuals, but transgendered individuals who were actually quite okay with their bodies.
-Some kind of bi-gendered people who, in a genetic male's case, had a "female side" they were able to embrace thanks to their accepting peoples, but also had a male side that enabled them to be okay with their bodies.
-Not actually happy; just less sad, since they could at least approximately live as women.

I have the deep conviction that outside those cases, most transsexuals throughout history were either:

-Exceedingly depressed for their whole lives, only living per obligation or religious conviction.
-Dead quite young, since they committed suicide or got themselves killed willingly.
-Found partial relief in some aspects of their lives and lived through the despair clinging to a thread of hope, such as mentally living as someone else, such as a spouse or child.
-Killed for their nature.
-Lived in their heads, which, depending on creativity, intelligence and knowledge, ended in either geniuses, psychiatric hospital/witch hunt cases, hermits or useless, secluded people only kept alive by their families.

Quote from: Rabbit on April 14, 2012, 09:39:31 PM
But, when I think about the american indians and transgendered people within those tribes (or other cultures before they had surgeries and hormones)... it seems transgendered people WERE able to live (seemingly happily) without them.

They weren't given the choice though. You don't miss what you've never had. Just because surgeries and hormones weren't available then doesn't mean some wouldn't have jumped at the chance if they had been.

Everyone's different, I guess, with how they come to terms with who they are, and what it means for them.

Quote from: Rabbit on April 14, 2012, 09:39:31 PM
Either way, to say this is a medical condition that absolutely needs hormones and surgeries ...is impossible.

Totally agree. However, for some people it's a purely physical disparity, and little to do with being allowed to express oneself the way one feels they want to. To some, self-expression is secondary to an overwhelming feeling of having the wrong physiology in the wrong places. And in those cases, hormones and surgical intervention is necessary to alleviate the mental anguish this causes.

I can totally see your point of view though, and in a lot of ways I agree with you, being transgendered is most definitely nothing to be ashamed of. The only real difference for me is that people could be as accepting of me as female and unjudgemental as they wanted, but unless my physiology matched, as closely as possible, my mental self-image and self-identity then it would make no difference. Because I wouldn't accept myself in the same way. All the acceptance in the world wouldn't be able to compensate for the very tangible, and often uncomfortable feeling of having something where it definitely shouldn't be, and something which I don't want.

Quote from: Rabbit on April 14, 2012, 08:14:38 PM
Being different does NOT mean wrong.... it does NOT mean we have a "gender identity disorder"... my gender identity is actually quite clear and to claim it is a disorder is to say humans shouldn't be like this (which, we know from looking at history and other cultures is COMPLETELY false).

Thank you, very well said

Quote from: Rabbit on April 14, 2012, 08:14:38 PM
I think it is important for the trans community to keep in their minds...

I see the same things happening with us now. Trans people who (like homosexuals back then) feel they really are mentally ill...

After reading that thread about "gatekeepers", I found it so sad how some of us were almost happy that we were classified as mentally ill. That they had (like homosexuals back then) accepted the professional diagnosis that there was something WRONG with being what we are... as if this wasn't simply one manifestation of the very normal gender spectrum.

The lack of self esteem is so apparent in our community. Everywhere we look being trans is treated as just a joke... so it is easy to understand how so many of us have simply come to accept what society is telling us...

I think the trans community needs to start getting a little pride in being what they are.

I, for one, think being trans is beautiful. I'm proud to stand up and say I'm transgendered. I can confidently stand up and say there is nothing wrong with me and my mind is not "broken"... I am simply further on the female side of the gender spectrum, how is that a "disorder"?

Being different does NOT mean wrong.... it does NOT mean we have a "gender identity disorder"... my gender identity is actually quite clear and to claim it is a disorder is to say humans shouldn't be like this (which, we know from looking at history and other cultures is COMPLETELY false).

I agree what you say, but I also understand the people who are for it, and there reasons..
if it can help I will say I dont belive transgender to be the only kinds of people dealing with those problems..
homosexuals, black people, and so on, had those fights of being threatet the same ways as anybody ells, just because they are diffrent in small details from the rest..

I think the difference is that homosexuals don't require surgery to express their sexual orientation.  We need to involve medical professionals to perform irreversible surgeries or other therapies upon our bodies.  That being the case, there must be some check in place because these medical professionals are placing themselves on the line - they assume liability when they work on another person.  They need to be covered in some fashion.  I do believe in informed consent, but I totally understand that some medical professionals would not be willing to assume liability without some demonstration of commitment from the patient.

Thumbs up to all of you for the intelligent discussion.