I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.

Well hon, a lot has been posted on just those issues and ramification.

There are (mostly younger?) folks that are afraid to get outed, trolled what ever if they post their personal pic(s).

Older females seem somewhat less affected - of course if we stone unattractive... it might be enough reason not to show up either.

I do agree though, being highly critical and don't show your own mug is kind of neff.

Next... "if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive. We all different and beauty as well as "passing" is in the end in the eye of the beholder... so, what now?

There is also a very good argument to be made for ANY sort of 2D photo (never mind shopped! I do hope not!) to be still not quite up to the real thing - ourselves - who we are - how we present - how we speak - etc. etc.

Given all this... take a guess if you find me and any silly pics taken with my cell-phone on any of those threads. You will not find me - it is TOO SUBJECTIVE - either which way it may go.
BTW, even WE, ouselves more often then not have to get used to our own, even very best, mug-shots. At least that's my experience - and I'm not really known to be of the "shy sort" he, he.

Take care,
Auntie... Axélle

People who post on the "Do I Pass Thread" want honest opinions on their looks. If they want us to use extra tact, they should mention it. I've always given my most honest opinions to everyone, whilst trying to remain respectful; being harsher when the poster seemed to request "brutal honesty"; being softer when the poster seemed fragile.

Maybe I've been too harsh on someone who didn't seem so, but ended up being quite fragile. In that case, I am very sorry and wish I had read better into her situation, but a person should understand that when they ask for constructive comments on themselves, they expose themselves to things they might not like. I'd understand if it were a comment such as "you're really ugly, you fail, just give up", but unless a person states that they want people to go easy on her, I do not see why a comment intended to help is unacceptable.

That being said, I do absolutely not see how my (or anyone else's) not posting of my picture is relevant or even acceptable to bring into this. I feel insulted. What is this? Because I don't want to show myself, my opinion is less legitimate?

As far as I know, on the Internet, the use of an avatar is the standard. I don't know about the others, but one of the reasons why I use the Internet so much is that I don't have to interact with others directly, because I hate my body.

Maybe it has become more frequent in the last 5-10 years with the advent of Facebook, but the publication of one's own picture is a very special decision that one takes assuming the risks. The day that my picture or real name become requirements on the Internet, I'll stop using it. I hate both of these, and suffer deeply when anyone says or sees any of them. So why the heck would I post it here to please other people, especially considering that it might put me in an unpleasant situation later?

Actually, rather than wanting people without a picture not to comment on others', it should be people who can't muster constructive criticism on their own pictures who shouldn't post them, at least not without a request to go easy on them.

I don't know if it's the sugar, but I feel really angry towards you at the moment. What sort of nonsense is this? Next, to partake in a political debate, we'll need to compete in an election? Need to paint a masterpiece to comment on an artist's work?

...

Being calmer, I can see that your intentions are to protect fragile members, but you are going the wrong way. It would do everyone a great disservice if everyone always posted very nicely and minimised any aspect that didn't work in a person's "do I pass?" picture. People asking for an opinion should be able to take one they don't like, and if they're too fragile, they should not ask for it, or ask it in a specific way.

Truth be told, once I post pictures in the mentioned thread, I'll want brutal honesty, but constructive comments on what to improve, as well. I don't want someone telling me that I'm so pretty and I totally pass when in fact I don't, and I won't care whether it comes from someone with their personal picture in their avatar, or not. Opinion is opinion.

It comes down to the person in question - are they going to take the comments as something to base their improvements on, or are they going to be hurt about it and despair?

Rationally looking at it, the latter will only make it worse, so might as well suck it up and try to improve on it.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
Well hon, a lot has been posted on just those issues and ramification.

There are (mostly younger?) folks that are afraid to get outed, trolled what ever if they post their personal pic(s).

Older females seem somewhat less affected - of course if we stone unattractive... it might be enough reason not to show up either.

I do agree though, being highly critical and don't show your own mug is kind of neff.

Next... "if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive. We all different and beauty as well as "passing" is in the end in the eye of the beholder... so, what now?

There is also a very good argument to be made for ANY sort of 2D photo (never mind shopped! I do hope not!) to be still not quite up to the real thing - ourselves - who we are - how we present - how we speak - etc. etc.

Given all this... take a guess if you find me and any silly pics taken with my cell-phone on any of thos threads. You will not find me - it is TOO SUBJECTIVE - either which way it my go.
BTW, even WE, ouselves more often then not have to get used to our own, even very best, mug-shots. At least that's my experience - and I'm not really known to be of the "shy sort" he, he.

Take care,
Auntie... Axélle

I suppose that you are quite right about all aspects. I don't pass most of the time and to be honest it isn't all that important to me anyway. And like you I'm opinionated and known to be confrontational at times, suppose all that comes with age and experience! Just the same I get upset for the younger ones here whose feelings get crushed. We all have some sort of mental problems if we're honest, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a counselor for gender dysphoria because we'd have all the answers. I concern myself about those that take criticism to heart and wind up harming themselves because of it. 

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM

In Reference To Do I Pass Threads

I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.

Seriously?

I think it's slightly more disconcerting to propose that someone who doesn't use their own picture, for whatever reason, should somehow be disqualified from expressing an opinion. Which is, in essence, all it is. An opinion. And should be taken as such. No one's an expert on anything. And whether people use their own picture or an avatar... it wouldn't change the kind of person they are and the tact, or lack thereof, in their responses... other than to perhaps illicit a reaction of "Well look at you, what do you know?" Which is, lets face it, hardly conducive to forum relations.

I have to confess I find this more than a little disappointing. And really, how is it not trampling over the self-esteem of people who choose not to display a picture of themselves to even suggest it? That people comport themselves with sensitivity to others' feelings and a bit of forethought to how what they say will be taken... well, it's not something which can be forced on someone by saying "I have to show you mine because you've shown me yours." Something like that has to come from a person's own sensibilities and changed from within. Insensitive people will still be insensitive people whether one can see them being so or not.

As Axélle has mentioned, there are many reasons people don't use their own pictures, not all involve hiding behind an image because they think they'll be better off under a bridge somewhere. That doesn't make what they have to contribute any less valuable.

I agree that harsh comments and tactless, destructive criticism are detrimental, and can leave lasting effects on people. But such things have not been, and will not be limited solely to those people who don't display their own pictures in their posts.

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM

In Reference To Do I Pass Threads

I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.

You post in the pass thread because you want an opinion. Can't be too picky about it when you actually get it. And telling someone they pass when they don't, which a lot of people do, is only disingenuous and it is setting them up for disappointment. 

Maybe a disclaimer would be appropriate. It's not like people are posting mean-spirited things all the time. Personally, I aim to give honest, constructive criticism 

About showing yourself: there's a lot of reasons people don't want to post pictures around here. Especially pictures as their avatar.

First of all, google indexes all the pictures on this site and you could end up associating your mug with pretty much any trans-related search word. And plus, I just don't really want to see myself every time I scroll down a page here.

Secondly, frankly some people are creepy about the pictures you post here  . They hit on you or make vaguely sexual comments. I'd rather not be hit on just while browsing susan's. And in the first place not everyone is a lesbian. But just because, like, I don't make a pic of myself my avatar doesn't mean I haven't shown what I look like before.

I don't generally comment on other people's looks. I don't think I have a good judgement when it comes to that anyway.

And yes, some comments do come off as a bit catty on some pics when things could be pointed out in a bit more tactful manner and at times, it seems as if the commenter is deliberately trying to discourage someone. No clue on the reasons, could be something personal or they could just be complete bitches, who knows.

On the flip side, I don't care to see excessive cheerleading either, its disingenuous.

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM

In Reference To Do I Pass Threads

I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.

I honestly could not agree more.

When people who never ever post any type of pic for themselves freely talk about others and how they do not pass or give grave criticism, the cynic in me thinks of them as a form of hypocrites. They can openly criticize another person but will never post their pic up. It seems very disingenuous when people do that. At the same time, I understand the privacy some people have when not posting their pics. However, I am human...and I freely get annoyed when someone acts like the Criticism master of pics when they have no pics of themselves. It feels odd to me. I am not saying my perspectives are right...I am saying how I feel about it.

On the other hand, I have an issue with people who will flat out lie to someone who does post a pic in a "do I pass thread." This is not anything against those who just started to transition or who has issues with public passing but I find it equally as troubling when I see people post "oh you pass" on pictures that clearly do not show people passing.

This can be dangerous too. It can give a false sense of recognition that they will have no issues of passing (hey...if everything thinks I pass...then I must pass), then they will go out in public and have an experience of being outed. This frustration only exemplifies because they were told for weeks on a transgender site they do pass.

Honestly, I give no concern to pics on passing or not passing. Pics are just one fraction of the whole picture. There are also other factors such as body language (overly pushing the feminine body language is just as bad as a quarterback body language), voice, presentation and overall appearance.

But yes, I agree that I find it irritating that people who have never posted a pic of themselves here feels the need to overly criticize someone else who had the courage to ask the question. ( I am not talking about people who do not post pics who gives helpful suggestions...I am talking about people who will just be ass nasty to someone because the pic poster doesn't pass, will brag how much prettier they are, etc., but then you never see what they look like. I get suspicious of overly bragging people like that).

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
"if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive.
Take care,
Auntie... Axélle

This ^ also applies to threads too!

Paradoxically, it seems that those who bitterly complain when they get "criticized" are the same self-rightous self-appointed "Susan's Sheriffs" who had "run out of town" or persecuted people they deemed "unethical ethical" or "fakes."

Quote from: A on April 15, 2012, 11:13:48 AM

As far as I know, on the Internet, the use of an avatar is the standard. I don't know about the others, but one of the reasons why I use the Internet so much is that I don't have to interact with others directly, because I hate my body.

Maybe it has become more frequent in the last 5-10 years with the advent of Facebook, but the publication of one's own picture is a very special decision that one takes assuming the risks. The day that my picture or real name become requirements on the Internet, I'll stop using it. I hate both of these, and suffer deeply when anyone says or sees any of them. So why the heck would I post it here to please other people, especially considering that it might put me in an unpleasant situation later?

Actually, rather than wanting people without a picture not to comment on others', it should be people who can't muster constructive criticism on their own pictures who shouldn't post them, at least not without a request to go easy on them.

I don't know if it's the sugar, but I feel really angry towards you at the moment. What sort of nonsense is this? Next, to partake in a political debate, we'll need to compete in an election? Need to paint a masterpiece to comment on an artist's work?

...

Being calmer, I can see that your intentions are to protect fragile members, but you are going the wrong way. It would do everyone a great disservice if everyone always posted very nicely and minimised any aspect that didn't work in a person's "do I pass?" picture. People asking for an opinion should be able to take one they don't like, and if they're too fragile, they should not ask for it, or ask it in a specific way.

That's ok you are welcome to feel anger towards me I have a thick hide, and I do think your comments concerning the intrusiveness of the Internet are certainly valid and ring a bell with me. This is the only social site I'm on and prefer to be under the radar for the most part too. I"m not picking on you, nor was I thinking of anyone specific when I posted this. I think that it's just really incumbent on us to be careful how we word our comments and still offer the corrective criticism that people are looking for. There are some very fragile types that post here, sometimes we need to read into what someone is looking for. Rather than (yeah, your hands are huge with square palms as are your feet, or you look like a 6' 4" 250 lb Bo Peep!) There are ways to say it gently and soften the impact without being hurtful or rude.

As far as posting your picture, i found recently that it is far too easy to have your picture associated with the words: TS, TG, TV, CD by virtue of your picture be associated with some other member Avatar name.

Hellot All!
I would like to offer my opinion as someone who just recently took the plunge of posting my first pics for critiques. When I posted I asked for brutal honesty. Heck, I didn't even care if people were mean! I was just interested in what people thought outside of my personal cheering squad at home. I got some positive some negative but all and all it was helpful and not mean spirited. With that being said, I could care less if i knew what anyone else looked like. Maybe its selfish, but my pics were the ones I was interested in. I never thought, "Oh such and such poster said a negative comment let me go see what they look like so I can make a mean comment back." I almost think knowing what the posters looks like might detract from me taking the feedback in stride. Just my opinion but I think what the commenters look like is irrelavent.

<3 Olive

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 11:37:52 AM
I think that it's just really incumbent on us to be careful how we word our comments and still offer the corrective criticism that people are looking for. There are some very fragile types that post here, sometimes we need to read into what someone is looking for. Rather than (yeah, your hands are huge with square palms as are your feet, or you look like a 6' 4" 250 lb Bo Peep!) There are ways to say it gently and soften the impact without being hurtful or rude.

Couldn't agree more.

But I think that using whether someone displays their own image or an avatar is a bit of an over-simplification and doubt it makes any difference as to whether that approach is followed or not by each individual. Personally, I don't comment on those threads at all because I don't feel qualified to express an opinion either way. But that doesn't mean that if I did, anything I said should be taken as somehow less valuable, or have less weight, than someone else who displays their picture.

I've never posted to that thread because I don't want to offer my opinions quite yet and I have not begun HRT so I already know the answer to the question.

With that in mind, the thread is called "Do I Pass?" It is not "Flatter Me" or "Lie to Me About Passing." This is a discussion board and every member here has the right to offer their opinions.

When you post a picture to that thread you are putting yourself out there to the "world" and you should hopefully be getting an honest opinion. True there is no reason to be mean but if someone is looking for an opinion and they do not pass, they should not be coddled and told they do. That could be harmful in the long run.

I've read the posts a few times and I see girls that don't pass yet being lied to and told how gorgeous they are. If/when I post there I am going to do so with the hope that I'm going to be torn to shreds. It's going to be some time before I do. I want to be told what I am doing wrong and what I need to fix no matter the avatar.

What about those of us that have plenty of pictures out there, but don't actually use one for our avatar because the image for the avatar is more meaningful?

My avatar is just part of my leg sleeve, but I do in fact have pictures on this site.  Personally I don't usually post on "do I pass" threads, but with a rule like that am I allowed to or not?

What about those of us that have plenty of pictures out there, but don't actually use one for our avatar because the image for the avatar is more meaningful?

That, among other things... some of us use an avatar as an avatar (shocking display of imagination I know) - I've posted pix from time to time, but I like my avatar.  But if your posting it on a public board asking for opinions, then that's what your going to get.  What's the deal?  Like people "A" somehow know more, are more perceptive, more worthy of commenting?  Poppycock.  That's just bunk.

Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable.

I try not to comment in those threads because theres no way you can tell how the recipient will react - even if they think they want the God's honest truth, it can still be hurtful hearing it, or learning that they have a hitherto unrealised 'imperfection'. And on a personal level, at this stage in my own transistion, I know I don't have the necessary experience and knowledge to critique.

Regarding the avatar/picture debate, I haven't posted a picture of myself up because:

1. I don't feel I am at the stage in my transistion where I look 'acceptable' (possibly not the right word). IRL I still appear to most as a male and that continues to upset me, so posting my mug on here - a place where I feel I can escape my current predicament - would only have a negative effect on my shaky burgeoning self confidence.

2. Also, I want members to identify me not as some (admittedly hawt ) guy, but as the person I feel I am inside. Every day on hormones, I can see subtle changes so it probably won't be too long before you'll get a gazillion pics of me posing in all sorts of 'duck face' inspired poses. 

3. And to round it off, I'm still in stealth and for the sake of my family, friends, job, university (basically everything) I haven't made any preparations for outing myself and dont want some randoms from the interweb revealing all just yet! 

X

PS Also agree with Tekla - an avatar can just be an avatar, surely? Excluding Susans, of the other forums I frequent, theres maybe a handful of people who use a picture of themselves as avatars; close to 99% of them use avatars. Why should Susans be any different?

I did have a picture of myself as an avatar and now I do not.

Where does that leave me?

Quote from: Sephirah on April 15, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
Seriously?

I think it's slightly more disconcerting to propose that someone who doesn't use their own picture, for whatever reason, should somehow be disqualified from expressing an opinion. Which is, in essence, all it is. An opinion. And should be taken as such. No one's an expert on anything. And whether people use their own picture or an avatar... it wouldn't change the kind of person they are and the tact, or lack thereof, in their responses... other than to perhaps illicit a reaction of "Well look at you, what do you know?" Which is, lets face it, hardly conducive to forum relations.

I have to confess I find this more than a little disappointing. And really, how is it not trampling over the self-esteem of people who choose not to display a picture of themselves to even suggest it? That people comport themselves with sensitivity to others' feelings and a bit of forethought to how what they say will be taken... well, it's not something which can be forced on someone by saying "I have to show you mine because you've shown me yours." Something like that has to come from a person's own sensibilities and changed from within. Insensitive people will still be insensitive people whether one can see them being so or not.

As Axélle has mentioned, there are many reasons people don't use their own pictures, not all involve hiding behind an image because they think they'll be better off under a bridge somewhere. That doesn't make what they have to contribute any less valuable.

I agree that harsh comments and tactless, destructive criticism are detrimental, and can leave lasting effects on people. But such things have not been, and will not be limited solely to those people who don't display their own pictures in their posts.

Totally agree..

Also..  I quickly realized that transitioning/transitioned women are terrible at being able to tell if someone passes or not.  I came to the conclusion that it is because they are comparing the one in question to themselves, not to other women.  Also a critique done in cyber-space with a photo or photos isn't enough.

The good news is that most people are too busy going about their own lives to notice who is trans or not, unless you engage them or make a spectacle of yourself.

I had people tell me that I passed really good, some told me they would never have known, etc.,.  I did okay around people who were busy with their own lives, for the most part..  Later I was able to afford FFS and BAS.

If an individual is willing to commit to transition and willing to work hard and make sacrifices and stick with it then he or she can basically accomplish whatever they choose.  However it is important to remember that life is a journey, not a destination and perfection is special because it so seldom exists.  Passing as your true sex is more about resolve than it is about scoring points.  All star athletes started somewhere and train.  I suppose some of us can just take a few pills and fall through the rabbit hole, the lucky ones.  For most it is not that easy.

Fear is something to be overcome.  Courage never feels courageous.  If you never take a risk then you never take a risk and you can enjoy the comfort and security of regret till your dying day.  Posting pics of yourself on an open forum like this (or any forum for that matter) can undo whatever you worked so hard for, sacrificed so much for and overcame such great fears for.  Unless you are content to be trans for life.  Most of us want to be who we really are and for some of us that means being women or men, not "different" or "special" or "courageous" or "trans"..  Many of us just want our lives back and if we have managed to scrape something together for ourselves and choose to try to help someone else along.. we don't want our lives dashed apart because we reached out.

There are all kinds of people in the world and there are all kinds of people on Susan's.  You have to take that into consideration when you receive an opinion here.