Lately the MTF community has been attracting quite a few people who are clearly crossdreamers (I deliberately don't use ->-bleeped-<- as ->-bleeped-<- theory labels all trans people HSTS or ->-bleeped-<- and is offensive) and are clearly not trans. I have actually even seen two or three on this forum.

Crossdreamers would have always been sort of attracted to our communities, I guess, and that won't and can't be change. But previously, everybody knew the difference between a crossdreamer and a transwoman, the former being masculine and dreaming of 'becoming a woman' for the sake of sexual pleasure, and the latter being feminine and transitioning to present their real selves. Crossdreamers used to know that there's no way they can be like those transwomen, who are feminine by nature, and have often felt that they were luckier, as growing up as a 'feminine boy' and having to transition in such a bigoted society is clearly painful. Now crossdreamers are considering transition too, something that's clearly a mistake for them.

The 'sex change myth' is partly responsible for this. With increased media exposure of trans cases and their use of inaccurate and misleading terms like 'sex changes', most of society has now equated us with 'people who change sex'. Crossdreamers love this idea more than anything else - now they have a way of living out their fantasies. They like to think that they can become feminine and even 'sexy' if they just took hormones.

We need to re-assert the truth. That sex and gender is inborn, and transwomen are women born with a birth condition, who need to correct what has been wrong. That masculine men cannot change into women no matter what, and thinking otherwise is just pure fantasy. That it's okay to have fantasies, but it's not okay to confuse them with reality.

So if someone wasn't a very feminine boy., then they can't be "real" trans women? 

Personally, I'm more concerned with what elitism does to our community than a few fetishists.

I disagree entirely with your premise.  I actually find it to be pretty damn judgmental, offensive and divisive.  More of the "you don't belong" and "unless you did it the way I did it, it doesn't count" yammering.

Your theory that masculine men cannot ever transition is stunningly ridiculous.  More than a few people can tell you that extreme expressions of masculine behavior can manifest earlier in life as compensatory/suppressive facets of struggling with and staving off the inability to function as a result of existing and persistent dysphoria.

Your "truth" is yours and yours alone. 

The fact that your version comes with insulting labels, contrived absolutes and an attempt to categorize people based only on your experiences or understanding is just amazing.

-Miki

Who decides who is a cross dreamer man and who is a transsexual woman?

What are the criteria?

• Dress?  But the majority of women don't wear dresses every day.
  
• Age?  What about those of us who did come out before 6 and quickly learned that it was MUCH safer to hide that way.
  
• Orientation?  So lesbians aren't women either.  Also is it so hard to believe that whatever biological aspects influence gender identity may also influence other aspects of a person?
  
• Hobbies?  How many of the stereotypical female hobbies do you have to have?  2, 3, 4?  Are some more important than others?  Not to mention the fact that we are ALL individuals and stereotypes are often caricatures.
  
• Makeup?  My wife worn makeup maybe a dozen times before I came out to her.  Also most people around here aren't heavily made up.  For the most part the Tammy Fae look hurts passing more than it helps
  
• Growing up a girly boy?  What about those of us who are lesbians, but everyone around us has always assumed we were gay.  Not all feminine males are gay.  And not all gay males are feminine.
  

It all boils down to WHO decides?  Are we going to say that we know someone else better than they know themselves?  If the individual doesn't claim a label what gives us a right to place it on them?

Come on folks, lets try to have just one thread without name calling, slandering, back biting.

We are a "support" site, we are here to help each other, not condemn one another. 

Try to keep things civil, friendly, etc.

Quote from: Miki on April 18, 2012, 12:29:58 PM
Your theory that masculine men cannot ever transition is stunningly ridiculous.  More than a few people can tell you that extreme expressions of masculine behavior can manifest earlier in life as compensatory/suppressive facets of struggling with and staving off the inability to function as a result of existing and persistent dysphoria.

My words were NOT aimed at these people. My 'masculine men' are those who are naturally masculine, not those who simply act masculine. As for which camp an apparently masculine man belongs to, only they can honestly tell themselves.

Quote from: Miki on April 18, 2012, 12:29:58 PM
Your "truth" is yours and yours alone. 

The only truth here is that sex changes are not possible and masculine men (not counting those who act masculine and suppress themselves deliberately) do not become feminine by taking hormones. A saying I once heard is that you can put a vagina on anything, and that doesn't make it a sister.

Quote from: Miki on April 18, 2012, 12:29:58 PM
The fact that your version comes with insulting labels, contrived absolutes and an attempt to categorize people based only on your experiences or understanding is just amazing.

Crossdreamer is not an insulting label, it is what they use themselves. I also don't categorize people, if somebody says they're trans then they're trans, but if somebody says they're a crossdreamer or have ->-bleeped-<- then I respect that and don't see them as trans.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others


How is this very thread premise not a violation of rule 10?

Sorry, I'm locking this before it goes any further.

If it is resurrected under a different title it will immediately be deleted.

Sarah L.
Global Moderator