It's becoming evident to me that they're handling some aspects of 'our' transition at work rather badly.  I'd think that as the third trans-girl, I'd see some enlightened handling of this issue.  And while there are enlightened individuals here, the ones who believe that what I choose to do is a sin seem to have the upper hand and bias many of the procedures and rulings to favor this position.

A person in my chain-of-command 'uplink' is doing her darndest to push the trans-as-sin agenda by stalling on statements she made that she would obtain further clarification for me on questions such as which restroom I was to use if I were in a building where one facility had not yet been designated, and what precisely were others' rights, my rights, and where the boundaries between the two lay.  She did this by blocking access to the Labor Relations/EEO representative by saying I was to keep her (supervisor) informed, let her work the issues, and to not waste the governments' time on my personal issues.

I've checked with two others independently (thus breaking her commandment that I go through her,) about that, and they confirm that I can go to the EEO person as much as I like.

One more wrinkle.  The supervisor and the EEO person are old friends and co-workers, so I suspect somewhere a friendship bias was at work, as well as the two of them sharing moral beliefs.  I think the EEO person gave straight advice to the supervisor, but the supervisor colored it 'appropriately' before conveying it to me on previous occasions.

There was one overall issue -- that the rights of others had to be protected, that I couldn't proselytize my deviant lifestyle.

One question I wish to ask the EEO person is what are my rights when the supervisor tells me that "If God had not wanted me to have this position, I would not have been hired."

Another is, if I hear someone say something about me or my condition that is untrue, and will be injurious to me and my relations with others if unchecked, just what are my rights and what are those rights' bounds?

Could you help me with specific questions from your experiences that I may take to the EEO person when I meet with her?

Thank you;

Karen

First of all, hugs.  I really couldn't tell you what to say because I have not had such an experience.  I just told people I wanted to be treated like any other woman and they have done that.  As far as I'm concerned, religion should not be being brought up in a work place and just because they believe something does not mean you have to believe the same thing, nor should they be forcing you to adopt their beliefs.  If anything, it almost seems that religion is becoming the more prevalent issue and because you are a sinner within their religious beliefs, they are preventing you from doing your job efficiently.  Also regarding:

Quote from: Karen on April 17, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
She did this by blocking access to the Labor Relations/EEO representative by saying I was to keep her (supervisor) informed, let her work the issues, and to not waste the governments' time on my personal issues.

You are not the one making personal issues, she is and by preventing you from doing your job effectively, she is wasting the government's time.  You may want to take a look at California law regarding restroom use.  I know where I live, they legally have to let transgendered individuals use the restroom of the gender that they identify with (and present as).

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I figured it was better than no responses and perhaps it will give you some ideas about what to say or how to go about this.  Good luck and I hope you are able to solve this to your satisfaction.

Hello Karen.

As you know Karen I'm not from the US but I'll give you my take on this knowing that it may differ from others in that here we have very specific protections that guarantee our rights etc. and I'm really not sure how it works in the US.  And let me preface this by stating that I'm a qualified Harassment Investigator.

Having said that there are specifics which I believe are common to us both that I can speak on.

The first thing you need to put your hands on is any State regulations that govern human rights, next you need to get your hands on the company policy that governs harassment in the workplace as this will let you know exactly where you stand with regard to you rights at work.

If you have proof that this person is pushing the "sin" agenda then you could have grounds for an harassment case and you should not be afraid to push this forward as this persons actions are defined in harassment terms as "Abuse of Authority".  They are creating a poisoned work environment under the guise of helping you and I would call them on it as their actions to date would have cost them their jobs here in Canada.

So I'm not in Canada but rights are rights.  Don't stand for it Karen as they are putting you between a rock and a hard place, and it seems that if they make life hard enough for you that you will give up and leave.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

Quote from: Melissa on April 17, 2007, 11:26:28 AM
First of all, hugs.  I really couldn't tell you what to say because I have not had such an experience.  I just told people I wanted to be treated like any other woman and they have done that.  As far as I'm concerned, religion should not be being brought up in a work place and just because they believe something does not mean you have to believe the same thing, nor should they be forcing you to adopt their beliefs.  If anything, it almost seems that religion is becoming the more prevalent issue and because you are a sinner within their religious beliefs, they are preventing you from doing your job efficiently.  Also regarding:

Quote from: Karen on April 17, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
She did this by blocking access to the Labor Relations/EEO representative by saying I was to keep her (supervisor) informed, let her work the issues, and to not waste the governments' time on my personal issues.

You are not the one making personal issues, she is and by preventing you from doing your job effectively, she is wasting the government's time.  You may want to take a look at California law regarding restroom use.  I know where I live, they legally have to let transgendered individuals use the restroom of the gender that they identify with (and present as).

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I figured it was better than no responses and perhaps it will give you some ideas about what to say or how to go about this.  Good luck and I hope you are able to solve this to your satisfaction.

California has strong gender identity protections (they are one of the nine).  Under the law there, there is no issue with using the restroom of your gender identity (there is of course the arguement of presentation).   California is the same as DC in this matter.  If you are a TS, you can use the restroom of your gender identity, in fact not allowing it would probably be considered a violation of state law in Cali and considered a discriminatory practice.

First of all, the Transgender Law Center has a document about restroom use for TG people here: http://www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf
This will help in finding out exactly what your rights are regarding this issue.  Since you are on a military base (if I remember correctly) other laws may apply though and you may want to contact the TLC directly.

I think it is unethical, if not illegal, to have a person in a supervisory position try to keep you from contacting your Labor Relations/EEO representative.  Isolating you from a source of information about your rights is wrong, in my opinion, and you are right to go to your EEO rep directly.

Quote from: Karen on April 17, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
There was one overall issue -- that the rights of others had to be protected, that I couldn't proselytize my deviant lifestyle.

This one really gets my goat.  So many of these so called Christians complain about their rights being violated when it in reality it's their desire to apply their prejudice that is being proscribed.  Unfair discrimination is NOT a right!  If a supervisor told me, "If God had not wanted me to have this position, I would not have been hired." I would have thanked her for her opinion, with an emphasis on "opinion."  I might then have answered that if the Deity didn't want me to transition, she wouldn't have made me transsexual. 

Explaining facts to someone after they make an untrue remark or hurtful opinion is not proselytizing, in my book.  If someone makes these kinds of statements they are expressing an opinion and you are thus also given the right to express yours.  This kind of one sided censorship smacks of workplace harassment.

I hope you can work this out, Karen, going into an adversarial stance with a supervisor is never a good time.

hugs & smiles
helen

Quote from: Karen on April 17, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
There was one overall issue -- that the rights of others had to be protected...

How are you imposing upon other people's "rights?" What so-called rights need to be protected?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on April 17, 2007, 12:13:35 PM

Quote from: Karen on April 17, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
There was one overall issue -- that the rights of others had to be protected...

How are you imposing upon other people's "rights?" What so-called rights need to be protected?
~Kate~

Karen:

The idea that the basic assumption of your supervisor is that you are a deviant to start with but you must be tolerated is ridiculous!  This whole sin agenda is repugant.  According to this one, you are proselytize your deviant lifestyle just by breathing!

Karen, as a newly minted woman and having recieved the royal treatment in my office I am so horrified to see these shinanigans at other places.  Especially tax supported places!

You have been one of the woman I looked up to when I was getting ready for my transition.  I'm sorry that it has turned out poorly for you.

My advice, since I'm all full of piss and vineger right now, get a lawyer!  Now!  It feels like this situation will seriously deteriorate if you don't take corrective actions now.  It's confrontational, adversarial, I know.  And I for one hate being in the middle of a confrontation, but I feel you're going to get hurt if you don't stand up for YOUR RIGHTS!

And BTW: Hugs! Hugs! Hugs! Hugs! Hugs! Hugs! Hugs! Hugs!

-Sandy (Sue the bums!)

Sorry you're having to go through this Karen. I don't know about the law where you are, but it would be religious as well as gender discrimination here. They're forcing their religious views on you.

Another deviant,

Dennis

Karen, first of all, document everything that is told to you with name, date and time!  Start a folder that doesn't leave your possession and if any of this was communicated in email, print it to be included in the folder.   If there is a possibility of getting your supervisor to reply to an email asking for clarification on some issues, do it.  Send her an email asking about restroom policies and such and preface it with something like, "Since you advised me not to go to EEO but to come to you instead...."  Even if she doesn't answer by email, it may make her nervous enough to have things put in writing that she will back off a little.  If you have an attorney, get them copies of all your documentation and make sure that remark about "If God had not wanted me to have this position, I would not have been hired" is included.  If you don't have an attorney, I agree with Sandy, get one!  Check with some of your state GLBT organizations to see if the can recommend an attorney with experience in this area.

Beverly

Thank you so far for your suggestions and guidance, and sorry I couldn't log in last night (the internet in the motel where I was staying was down.  Hard.)

The person-in-authority in question didn't actually SAY I couldn't go to the EEO person, but her choice of words and how she presented the information ("I need to be kept in the loop" "I need to be given the opportunity to work any issues as your section supervisor", "Your condition can't take up too much time here", to recall a few from memory,) left no doubt in my mind she'd prefer I NOT bring anything up.  I took excellent notes at the meeting, and all I have to do is find the transcript of the meeting. (Don't ask...)

Since then, I've been typing up journal entries and e-mailing them to my private e-mail.  But recently I started e-mailing the reminders to write a journal on thus-and-such.  Then I write the journal 'off the clock' and send the finished journal entry back to my work e-mail, as well as another private box I have.  I'm counting on the system timestamps and the weekly backup schedule of the Exchange server to provide traceability.  Of course, they could always Dick Cheney my e-mails (just as long as they don't Dick Cheney me...)

As to attorneys, I'm going to California Dreamin', and TG Law Firm will be there.  But I'm torn, as their TG Law 101 presentation is at the same time as GRS Surgeon Dr. Peter Davis.

BTW, who would have statistics or even anecdotal evidence on which Christian 'denominations' are diversity-friendly and which are the most intolerant/rejecting?  Hard statistics would be great, as I may need to show that my concern is based on rational thinking given recent anti-gay/anti-trans actions in the news and also close to home.

The bad part is, it's stressing out my immediate supervisor, who's doing all he can to shield/support me.  It's as if the rules/rulebook are being 'gamed' to make me lose.

Oh, and the bathroom issue -- I work on a federal military reservation.  It's kind of like an indian reservation in that state laws don't apply there -- or at least there are some state laws that don't apply.  I know that in California you can't buy distilled spirits stronger than 151-proof.  But I can buy  Everclear 190-proof in the Class-Six store (military liquor store,) in defiance of state law.  *ahem*, So anyway, California State law may not apply. (The next time I host a VTC for the JAG, I'll ask him for clarification...)

Some of the other questions will be on the order of, "When I'm told that 'other people have rights that need protecting' what exactly are those rights?  How many of them are there?  Could you please enumerate and explain them for me, so I will be able to make correct choices when faced with different situations?  &c., &c...

If you have any other specific questions, such as how do I handle a situation where I'm confronted by an individual making bigoted statements either to me or in my presence, please do post them for inclusion in the list.

Thanks for all your support so far;

Karen

As far as handling bigoted questions, I find humour goes a long way. One of my clients' ex wife said to him "who has the bigger balls, you or your lawyer?" (right before I had officially transitioned and had told other lawyers, and her lawyer very helpfully told her). I said "he does, but I'm a better lawyer."

I always find humour and disarming people with frankness the best way to go about it. They can ask me anything they want and I'll answer. I'll answer what I think they're asking. I ran into a woman at the courthouse the other day and we had one of those "um, do I know you" moments. Finally she said, "er, did you used to be different?". I said "female? Yeah, I changed." She said "oh, phew thought I was going crazy for a minute."

The key for me is to be totally cool with who I am and it will rub off. The few negative reactions I had (which I didn't see or hear directly for myself, but was told about), I just ignored and eventually they came round.

After a year or so, my boss said to me (and he is not given to effusiveness) "I've had no reaction whatsoever to your transition. I think that's due to you more than anything else. I can't imagine taking anything that serious as casually as you do, but it's worked."

You'll do it, Karen. From what I know of your personality, you'll pull it off.

Dennis

Karen I do feel for you, it carnt be very nice having to deal with this digated behavoir. Unfortunetly I dont understand the situation you are in over there in the states, but I do have knowledge of how to work the UK system, hope you get this sorted soon, love LUCY

Quote(just as long as they don't Dick Cheney me...)

Or worse, they could Dick Cheney's HUNTING partner you....  *bang*   

Not much to add.  I have to deal with some gov agencies but lucked out that my boss has a lot to lose should the wrong bit of publicity hit the papers. Gave me SOME negotiating power. However, I do not actually work for the .fedgov in any way so have nothing really to offer up.

I basically went to my HR person first. Described what was going to go on and left it at that for her to soak it in. Follow up meeting I provided a couple of books (thin, T work stuff) and some documentation. I was asked some questions and basically told her that I was passable and that I was starting to have issues when using the men's room (which she was surprised and our building is mostly open to the public). Stated what I expected and what I wanted from management. At this point the higher ups in the main HR department (large division) were brought in as was my boss and her boss who runs our entire division.

Next meeting was with the local HR person, one from the main division that we are a subset of at the moment, and my boss. The only other case they had to go on was a crossdresser who decided that he wanted to present as female at work (and uses the Men's room, etc, *from what they said*). They stated support for me and the expectation that anything that occurs would go away after a week or two. Strategy planning on outing myself followed.

Next meeting was me being told how I was going to deliver the message. E-mail was out since it was too easy to forward it to others outside of the company and to the media.

Next time around I presented the rough draft of the letter to be sent to everyone. Tweaking followed and I brought up the bathroom question again (remember, asking is polite demanding). They did not have an answer.

Meeting with my boss the next day, I presented what would be the finalised letter going out to everyone. Brought up the issue of bathrooms again and also "requested" a written statement from my boss, her boss, and HR stating that they support me in my transition. At this point, 2 business days away from T-Day. 

Later on that day more wheeling and dealing ensues. In the end I dropped my demand for a written statement of support in exchange for use of one particular ladies room near my office and a paragraph written by me stating that they are aware of my change and that it will not impact my employment. Letter is now finalised and I start photocopying 150 of those things and stuffing them into envelopes.

Take the week off.

Return to work to shock and amaze everyone. Two things were continually said to me, 1) that I looked good and 2) that they were surprised that I did not change my usual routine at all. I still made my rounds and engaged others in conversation. Even though I was nervous (could not eat at all that day) I went in just like it was any other day out of the year.

Now I did schedule my transition just after my annual review (which was stellar, natch) so that I would have the grounds to raise a big stink if anything happened.

The far left and the far right at work did try to make things difficult but I refused to let them see me get upset, flustered, or anything. I was professional the entire time and brought up the issues with my supervisor during meetings that she had requested. Things were dealt with quietly.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

If they are going to have special rules for you tell them that you are going to need them (the rules) in writing and that it needs to be signed that way they might not be so carefree with your rights. Plus if they want to deny you your rights you'll have proof if you need it later.

If you work for the government. The state laws do not apply.
If you work for an employer that contracts with the federal government and has offices in the State of California, State laws still do apply to the contracter.  As long as the employer is PRIVATE, state employment and anti-discrimination laws still apply with regards to your job, even if the job itself is on federal land.  If it is a private employer it would still have to follow state anti-discrimination laws.  The only entity that does not have to follow them is the Federal Government themselves.