Does anyone else have trouble distinguishing what they have (sex) from what they feel (gender)? Sorry if this comes across as rude, I've just noticed that it is the source of a lot of my gender confusion. I view my gender as how I feel about my body, how I want people to see me, and how I view myself. Those don't always match up which is a bit confusing, but alright. But sometimes, I can't figure out how I feel at all because my mind ends up preoccupied with the fact that my body is female as opposed to how I feel about it. I just end up feeling uncomfortable. Does that make any sense? What can I do to deal with this confusion? Am I the only one who feels this way?

Hmmm well... I'm probably the odd one out here, but I think sex and gender are closely related.
I think it is futile to separate them completely.
After all, if they were really THAT separate, we'd be comfortable with identification documents showing sex as our sex at birth.
Well, I suppose some people are okay with that, but I am definitely not one of them!!

So personally I'm not really into this "sex is biology and gender is social construct" thing.
I'm not saying they are exactly the same thing; they are not. They just aren't that separate either.
So I answer the same thing whether I am asked for my sex or gender... So I don't feel confused about the two

I'm sorry I keep repeating this, but please people stop mentioning the idea of gender being a social construct. It makes me feel confused, disorientated, defensive, and triggers self hatred in me since I can't possibly feel the way I do if that's what gender is.
I am going by sex as in ovaries, boobs, uterus, testes, etc and gender as in brain (neurons, synapses). I'm interested in facts, not weird social fads.

I mean that I can't deny that my body is typical for a female (boobs, ovaries, ect) and sometimes I have a hard time ignoring that fact.
Like I'll think I feel male, but I'll be very aware of the fact that I have typically female organs. So then I'll wonder if I really feel male or if I'm completely bonkers. And then I feel very uncomfortable and start hating myself.

Gender is NOT a social construct. Sex is physical. Gender is mental. Gender Roles are social. They are all three different concepts.

I'm just gonna ignore the sex/gender language. 'Cause I have issues with the sex/gender language. So ya.

Quote from: Edge on April 25, 2012, 09:09:29 AM
I mean that I can't deny that my body is typical for a female (boobs, ovaries, ect) and sometimes I have a hard time ignoring that fact.
Like I'll think I feel male, but I'll be very aware of the fact that I have typically female organs. So then I'll wonder if I really feel male or if I'm completely bonkers. And then I feel very uncomfortable and start hating myself.

I'm sorry, I don't mean this to sound dismissive. But isn't that what dysphoria is basically? Self-hatred/discomfort predicated on your body not matching what you feel it should be. Sounds kinda normal for folks on the trans continuum.

I thought I was crazy for years and years...

Quote from: Jeneva on April 25, 2012, 09:22:24 AM
Gender is NOT a social construct. Sex is physical. Gender is mental. Gender Roles are social. They are all three different concepts.

^ indeed..

I can't really add to that, but I agree totally !

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 25, 2012, 09:30:55 AM
I'm just gonna ignore the sex/gender language. 'Cause I have issues with the sex/gender language. So ya.

I'm sorry, I don't mean this to sound dismissive. But isn't that what dysphoria is basically? Self-hatred/discomfort predicated on your body not matching what you feel it should be. Sounds kinda normal for folks on the trans continuum.

I thought I was crazy for years and years...

Don't worry, your not alone then 

Yes this is what I thought too, especially the self hate thing.. sounds all too familiar. 

I'm reading a very interesting book by a pahtologist on intersex persons who says that sex does indeed exist, and is intricately linked with gender, however sex is not the clean-cut binary our society would like to think it is. "Maleness" and "femaleness" as it relates to sex, he writes, are like the bass and treble on a radio. You can never have "pure bass" or "pure treble" but always a combination of the two.

Thanks for agreeing about gender as separate from the social fads. It makes me feel less like I'm banging my head against a wall. On that subject, I talked to my gender therapist today and he said, "Would it be enough to be a tomboy or a butch lesbian?"    Uh NO!

Ok, so that's dysphoria. That definitely clears some stuff up. Thank you very much! (And no, that wasn't dismissive. It was exactly what I wanted to know. All this stuff is new to me, so I'm sorry for floundering.)

Anthropos, the idea of being intersex makes me feel really happy, but I thought it was impossible for intersex people to reproduce? Because I have.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 25, 2012, 09:22:24 AM
Gender is NOT a social construct. Sex is physical. Gender is mental. Gender Roles are social. They are all three different concepts.

I get the feeling you and I would get along jeneva, as I agree with you a lot.

Yes, gender is not a social construct, and it is seperate from sex.

---Think of SEX as being physical, or scientific. It is what is betwen the legs, or the chromosomal makeup, the biology....and is independent of gender. This is why people who don't fit the precise mold are "intersexed" or "between sexes", because they do not fit into a strict "sex". One's sex may affect their perceptions, for example testosterone will affect mood, even against ones wishes...just as the menstrual cycles may affect an indivisual DESPITE their knowing what is going on.

---GENDER is mental, it is "spriritual".  Gender is an individual's perception of how they feel. No one can tell you what gender you are, only you know that. That's why it's called GENDER identity disorder...because it is the GENDER that is incogruent with physical sex...and that's what causes dysphoria (mental pain).

---GENDER ROLES are SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS and vary across cultures. For example, the difference in expectations across cultures for the big two, male and female, are due to gender roles. They are as old as man and people have long disagreed with assigned gender roles. That is very "normal".

The best thing that you can do to deal with your feelings is to realise that what you are feeling is far more common than you  might expect. Non-trans people even occasionally have feelings of gender confusion. You're not alone!

Another tip is to explore the FACT that labels are misleading. We, as creatures, are far too complex to put into simple categories with labels. We are not items, we are people. Try to grow okay with the idea that you are who you are, and labelling yourself isn't going to change that...so just let yourself be! 

I hope that was at least a bit helpful

EDIT: No it is not impossible for all intersexed people to reproduce, but it is common. That comes down to the individual condition. We are discovering that intersex conditions are far more common than once thought, and that otherwise completely normal looking, normal feeling people may have an intersex condition that simply does not present with obvious symtpoms (or any symptoms). Some go their entire lives without knowing it!

We are incredibly complex creatures, and there is a LOT of variety and diversity across our species. Just because someone is different than the mainstream it does not mean that they are WRONG. There is more than one way to be!

MiaOhMya, I understand that you felt like clarifying the definitions and I do tolerate a few sentences of of thread derailment (obviously), but that was three paragraphs of thread derailment complete with a sentence in all caps which makes me feel like I'm being yelled at. Since I am the one who started this thread, I feel like all that was directed at me.
If that was directed at me, this is my response:
I know. I've been telling people over and over that I know and I feel really frustrated because people keep acting as if I don't.
And I am trans. I have a typically female body (organs) and I am a guy (mentally). I am not always a guy and I'm still confused about the science of that, but I am right now. And yes, I AM referring to the mental. I know this blows people's minds for some reason, but I really was raised gender neutral.
Oh! That's interesting about intersex conditions. I wonder if I can get myself tested or something.

I was just trying to help, and I thought it was on topic, but you seem already to know what it is you want to hear.

I used the caps to emphasise the point, not to yell (I am not a "yeller"),  but i will fix it out of respect for your thoughts.

Thank you.
Yes, I was informed that what I was asking about is dysphoria which does clear up a lot of confusion for me.

Quote from: Edge on April 25, 2012, 03:34:21 PM
MiaOhMya, I understand that you felt like clarifying the definitions and I do tolerate a few sentences of of thread derailment (obviously), but that was three paragraphs of thread derailment complete with a sentence in all caps which makes me feel like I'm being yelled at. Since I am the one who started this thread, I feel like all that was directed at me.

Hi Edge,

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you're coming off very argumentative and oversensitive, not just in this thread but this one as well. Whether you started the topic or not, you don't get to police what language people use or how they use it. If you want help and replies, try not to jump all over them, ok?

Yes I can't tell you how much I had to bite my tongue to stop letting my real opinion fly. It is something I've only mastered in the past few years. Thank you admin.

Deleted because I realize that breaches in rules should be reported to the moderators rather than trying to deal with it myself.

Well, for what it's worth I never thought nor said you were stupid. That is something you've come up with on your own. I have encountered your type, and I used to be very much the same way. It's very difficult to offer something to someone who only wants people to  agree with them.

Something for you to ponder: Intelligence and wisdom are seperate. Just because you believe you are intelligent, it does not mean you are wise. Wisdom is earned. Don't dismiss the oppourtunity to learn from others simply because you disagree with them. Doing so is a recipe for a lot of pain in life, because you will have to learn everything from your own mistakes rather than learning through others';

However I get the feeling my words are lost to you...just look at your signature, you already know it all...and so with that I must literally walk away now...

Both gender and sex are social constructs, but that doesn't make either less important, needed, or valid. I say both are social constructs because society in general says if you're a certain way you're one thing or the other. Sex is not that binary, but babies are born and doctors go (for the most part) "that's close enough to vulva/a penis thus this baby is female/male." The actual genitals have a gray area. There's also the idea that people have a sex identity and a gender identity.

Sex identity is how you identify your body. An example, is that although there are some intersex people out there that define their bodies as neither male or female, many do feel one way or the other about their bodies. This is also common for transsexuals, and some transgender people.

Gender identity is more social and psychological. I'm talking about the whole sha-bang. Gender expression (how you want to show people your gender), and your general identity, how you'd like to be treated, if you want to be called sir, ma'am, both, or neither.

Both are assigned at birth, and often times society equates the two (ex: in some areas you have a marker on an ID that says sex but is often called a gender marker. This can determine if you use the men's room or women's room which is gender).


For myself, I've just always felt my body is male so I don't have the same problems relating to my body.

Hmm that makes sense. I didn't know there was such a thing as sexual identity. I thought it was just what I was taught in grade twelve bio class. It would be so useful if this kind of stuff was taught. (I don't mean any disrespect to my teachers or anyone. I just talk a lot to myself out loud. It helps me organize my own thoughts.) Thank you.

Quote from: Edge on April 25, 2012, 06:55:13 PM
Hmm that makes sense. I didn't know there was such a thing as sexual identity. I thought it was just what I was taught in grade twelve bio class. It would be so useful if this kind of stuff was taught. (I don't mean any disrespect to my teachers or anyone. I just talk a lot to myself out loud. It helps me organize my own thoughts.) Thank you.

Nah, not sexual identity (to me that sorta sounds like sexual orientation). People might tell me I'm female because I was assigned female at birth, but when I look down thar I just think "penis."

Ah I see. For me, I am always aware that I don't have a penis and I do have a hole. It's a little disorienting at times. Is that normal?