Quote from: Keaira on April 25, 2012, 11:19:41 PM
Get yourself one of those little voice recorders that you use for taking notes. keep it in your pocket. Next time they get abusive, record it. you'll have more weight  than he said/she said. 😉

This is a good idea.

That really sucks 🙁 And I dont know why they are getting so crazy about the toilet issue. When I went to school they didnt even care! One of my teachers once even saw me come out of the male toilets and just smiled and said nothing. I really hope that you are able to do something 🙂

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 25, 2012, 11:57:30 PM
This is a good idea.

I was going to suggest that as well but since Michigan is a two-party consent state it's kind of one of those gray areas.  Even though this inappropriate conduct is occurring, it's not considered blatantly unlawful.  There are circumstances where parents of disabled children in two-party consent states have put recorders in their kids pockets to catch abuse and misconduct, but that's really the only legal circumstance I can think of where it's acceptable.

As a step short of sueing, would a lawyer's letter do any good? That would have an implied threat of legal action if they don't get their a***e into gear.

Karen.

Quote from: justmeinoz on April 26, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
As a step short of sueing, would a lawyer's letter do any good? That would have an implied threat of legal action if they don't get their a***e into gear.

Karen.

If the OP is unsatisfied with the outcome of this recent situation then his mother should take the matter directly to the Superintendent.  Involving a civil attorney in the matter prematurely would be expensive and could poison the outcome of greater issues at hand.    However, if the situation goes sour it wouldn't be a bad idea for the OP's mother to meet with a civil attorney for a free 30 minute consultation to see what her options are.  In my honest opinion though, unless the OP suffers a physical injury, these events occur daily (with the administrations full knowledge) and/or criminal charges are separately brought against any of these individuals, I don't see a civil attorney representing them pro bono or on a contingency; they would expect full payment for representing them. 

The OP's mother could contact the ACLU, but I don't think at this point they would involve themselves either, not until something severe happens (which shouldn't have to happen at all, but it seems that's the only way to bring about change). 

I am not particularly well versed on Michigan codes or statues, but I would advise the OP's mother to specifically look into her states criminal code regarding "Disturbing the Peace/Breach of the Peace" and at which level (city/county/state/federal) she would need to file a civil tort claim on behalf of her son for civil rights violations and discrimination, it would greatly help if there were previous legal cases in the OP's state setting favoring legal precedent.  Sadly these things are a very long and tedious uphill battle complicated by bureaucratic processes.  But Michigan does have laws specifically stating that schools and their staff have a legal duty to prevent student bullying when it's brought to their attention.  Now, this type of staff misconduct towards students isn't student bullying but could very well be interpreted as child abuse and that's not a term administrators like to hear often, especially when they had full knowledge of it.

Quote from: Epi on April 26, 2012, 07:38:36 AM
If the OP is unsatisfied with the outcome of this recent situation then his mother should take the matter directly to the Superintendent. 

That's what we planned on doing, however I got an email today from Equality Michigan saying that they can talk to my school on my mother and I's behalf after she signs a consent form. This is what the email said:

"Hi Jacob:

Here is the municipal code that was recently passed that would apply in this situation:

http😕/library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10649
If it's OK with you, ___ can send a consent form so we have permission to talk with the school on your and your mother's behalf.

We agree with you that bathroom use should not require some "proof" or legal gender marker change, and that the code's inclusion of "gender identity and expression" means that a legal gender marker change is not necessary, but as far as we know no direction has been given to schools in DPS on this issue.  What we can do is draft a letter, citing this ordinance, and send it to the school.  It is very difficult to get a gender marker change in Michigan so this requirement is way too difficult for most people to meet, and you shouldn't have to go through a complicated legal maneuver just to use the bathroom.   Once we work out the consent form, we can talk some more."

The specific codes are http😕/library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=1 and http😕/library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=4

I was starting to lose a bit of hope in them leaving me alone about using the men's bathroom, but after this email that hope has been restored 😀. Hopefully it stays simple and it doesn't get all bad like you said Epi.

And thank all of you of the supportive/helpful replies 🙂

Wow, it's really great that they're going to help you! 😀

I was going to say actually, how are the other students at your school? Like, would any of them be willing to support you in this, or report the offensive behaviour to the principal on their own behalf? Kind of like 'As a fellow student, I can't believe how ____ is being treated, and I'm offended by this. He hasn't done anything to warrant that kind of behaviour, and if an adult were treating me in such a way I would report them for child abuse.' etc. It might put more weight to your arguments if those in authority can have it put in such a perspective.

Anyway, I hope these people can help you out! Please keep us posted on how things progress! 🙂

Quote from: Epi on April 26, 2012, 04:50:14 AM
I was going to suggest that as well but since Michigan is a two-party consent state it's kind of one of those gray areas.  Even though this inappropriate conduct is occurring, it's not considered blatantly unlawful.  There are circumstances where parents of disabled children in two-party consent states have put recorders in their kids pockets to catch abuse and misconduct, but that's really the only legal circumstance I can think of where it's acceptable.

According to the almighty Wikipedia,

QuoteMichigan's eavesdropping statute seems to put it into the two-party category, but the courts have ruled that in Michigan, a party may record their own conversation without the consent of any other parties but cannot grant that right to a third party.

They cite this source, among others:http😕/www.rcfp.org/can-we-tape/michigan

So, he can do it?

Quote from: Keaira on April 30, 2012, 01:53:37 AM
So, he can do it?

If I were him I would. He can run the audio by a lawyer before trying to use it for anything, and he may be further protected by the fact that public schools are generally understood to be safe and to operate transparently.

Gosh I hadn't seen this. I really feel for you and have had a few incidents myself, , as has my boyfriend (latest one for him was just last night).

I dunno what it is, but it seems as a mtf if someone slips up, and I correct them, they're generally embarrassed. With my ftm boyfriend, however, it's completely different...they act like this ignorant monster you encountered. I just don't know why that is.

I am glad you and your mum are pursuing a course of action to invoke change. I had a couple of times where I should have done something similar, one at work especially, but I was too much a coward. Good on ya!

Quote from: Felix on April 30, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
Michigan's eavesdropping statute seems to put it into the two-party category, but the courts have ruled that in Michigan, a party may record their own conversation without the consent of any other parties but cannot grant that right to a third party.

This would apply to telephone conversations.  You can record yourself having a conversation over the phone with someone, but without their consent you can't record their part of the conversation, only your own.

Some states only apply the two-party consent in situations where an individual has a "reasonable expectation of privacy", some don't.  Some states have had lower courts make filming of police officers and other public employees illegal (and legal).

You can record someone without their knowledge in two-party consent states, but only in very specific situations.  (ex.  Amber Frey recorded the conversations she had with Scott Peterson who was convicted of murdering his wife and unborn child.  Normally that wouldn't have been admissible in court, but in situations where illegal activity has occurred, its been permitted.)

Quote from: MiaOhMya! on April 30, 2012, 02:24:55 AM
Gosh I hadn't seen this. I really feel for you and have had a few incidents myself, , as has my boyfriend (latest one for him was just last night).

I dunno what it is, but it seems as a mtf if someone slips up, and I correct them, they're generally embarrassed. With my ftm boyfriend, however, it's completely different...they act like this ignorant monster you encountered. I just don't know why that is.

I am glad you and your mum are pursuing a course of action to invoke change. I had a couple of times where I should have done something similar, one at work especially, but I was too much a coward. Good on ya!

When I correct people about my gender, I don't get a good response. Some, don't even use my first name. Granted, this is mostly at work. Although I can't even get my wife to use the right pronouns... frankly, it's a big reason I want to quit my job. And it's been a big argument starter between my wife and I.
So it isn't limited to FtM's.

Quote from: Epi on April 30, 2012, 02:42:13 AM
This would apply to telephone conversations.  You can record yourself having a conversation over the phone with someone, but without their consent you can't record their part of the conversation, only your own.

Some states only apply the two-party consent in situations where an individual has a "reasonable expectation of privacy", some don't.  Some states have had lower courts make filming of police officers and other public employees illegal (and legal).

You can record someone without their knowledge in two-party consent states, but only in very specific situations.  (ex.  Amber Frey recorded the conversations she had with Scott Peterson who was convicted of murdering his wife and unborn child.  Normally that wouldn't have been admissible in court, but in situations where illegal activity has occurred, its been permitted.)

I'd still record if it were me. Otherwise it's just his word against theirs.

Quote from: Felix on April 30, 2012, 01:50:49 PM
I'd still record if it were me. Otherwise it's just his word against theirs.

Fruit of the poisonous tree.  Not only could you get in trouble for doing so, whatever you obtained would be inadmissible.  You can't violate someones civil rights because you believe they violated yours.  In situations like this, you have a friend present as a witness to corroborate your side.

There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, which is the single greatest factor in determining the legality of such issues. Overhearing a conversation in public, just as recording a TV guest's "off screen" anecdotes...cannot be considered eavesdropping because one cannot reasonably expect absolute privacy in public places.

Quote from: MiaOhMya! on April 30, 2012, 06:32:07 PM
There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, which is the single greatest factor in determining the legality of such issues. Overhearing a conversation in public, just as recording a TV guest's "off screen" anecdotes...cannot be considered eavesdropping because one cannot reasonably expect absolute privacy in public places.

Only a handful of states interpret it to include public places of gathering with absolutely no expectation of privacy.  While it should be the standard in all 50 states, it's not.  There were some recent rulings at the federal level regarding the filming of police officers, but that's completely different.

I hope you can hold the line about using the male restroom. Giving in to their request could expand into other gendered spaces and activities. Also, forcing you to use the non-gendered restroom has the high likelihood of outing you to students who would otherwise not know your private information.

Not sure if it's still the topic of debate, but I don't think I'll even have the opportunity to record another incident even if I wanted to. The lunch lady has been acting all nice like nothing ever happened, probably because she knows her job is in jeopardy.

Quote from: MrTesto on April 30, 2012, 07:23:41 PM
I hope you can hold the line about using the male restroom. Giving in to their request could expand into other gendered spaces and activities. Also, forcing you to use the non-gendered restroom has the high likelihood of outing you to students who would otherwise not know your private information.

Those are the main reasons why I am pressing forward. For one, I don't want this to be an issue for future students at my school who have similar backgrounds; not only the bathroom situation, but also the hostility from teachers and like you said, they may expand other gendered spaces and activities. I don't want these few teachers and staff to think that it's just okay to continue to be complete jerks towards certain preferences of students either. Also, like you said, using the unisex bathroom brings the likelihood of outing me to other students which is why I really prefer not to use it now, especially because it's right in open view of the office.

Also, just a small rant here (not related to anyone's posts):
People keep telling me that this is just life. I am aware that this is life and you have to deal with crappy situations like this, however, if there is a chance to make a change and make that crappy situation better not only for you, but for people who may find themselves in the same position as you in the future . . then I'd like to take that chance . . I'd rather not settle for the crappy situation & accommodations made if possible.

Update:
My mother and I are going to have a meeting with someone from Equality Michigan and ACLU next Thursday to outline what we will address during a conference with my principal and gym teacher (he insists that I can't compete with the other males because it is a liability since I am legally female.)