I'm having a lively discussion on Facebook with a good lesbian friend of mine about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival's admission (non-admission?) policies. I feel like we're both trying to be really respectful of each other's POV and the discussion remains very intellectual and respectful. I would love to get some other POVs. I'm honestly trying to come to a common ground of understanding with her. I'm not trying to "win" a debate. I think some outside sources would be helpful for that. I'm interested in your thoughts on it regardless of how you feel. I fully acknowledge that I'm kinda the peanut gallery here because I'm not a womon, much less a born womyn, but that's why I'm eliciting the opinions of others.

I also told her about Susan's Place and suggested she Google it.

An abridged review of the discussion so far:

QuoteHow can a stated policy of consistent discrimination be interpreted as personal? Discrimination by its nature is inherently collectivist and not personal. Are we supposed to cut gays &/or lesbians some slack when they (with blatant hypocrisy) support discriminatory policies? The justifications I've heard so far have been incredibly offensive. Women prejudging every trans woman and seeing her as a potential rapist because she might still have a penis? Is there some epidemic of trans women raping cis women that I'm ignorant of to justify such prejudgments? There are white people who feel unsafe around black people and see every black person as a potential criminal who may victimize them at any moment. Does that make racial discrimination okay too?

She also compared the MWMF with me having a private circle jerk with "the guys" and how she wouldn't take it personally if I didn't invite her. (LAWD! I don't have those kinda parties, not that there's anything wrong with that!)

QuoteComparing collectivist policies of an (yes, private, but generally open to the public and not at all personal) entertainment venue with something that is inherently personal, i.e. whom I might choose to have sex with based on what turns me on, is a horrible analogy that completely misses the point.

And a few links she's provided:
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianmusicians/a/BitchInterview_2.htm
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/a/TransatMich.htm
http://www.autostraddle.com/how-the-michigan-womyns-music-festivals-topless-womyn-changed-my-lesbian-life-forever/

If you want to comment directly, go here. You'll have to "Like" the page, of course, even if just temporarily.

The festival bills itself as welcoming all women. It doesn't. I think it is the blatant hypocrisy and cissexism that denies even our existence that I find most problematic.

Second, there is a big difference between excluding a privileged majority in order to have a safe space and excluding an underprivileged minority. Most of the folks who think excluding trans women is okay are thinking we are part of a privileged majority, we aren't. This isn't excluding white women from the black women tent. This is excluding black women from the white women festival. And the stats back that up like crazy ->-bleeped-<-.

Third, the festival is kind of open now to trans women under their DADT policy. Personally, I don't think it's a particularly safe/positive space for me, and wouldn't go. But I am allowed. Progress?

Fourth, Autostraddle has dramatically changed its position on trans issues over the last three years, and you would be unable to find such stupid ->-bleeped-<- in any recent post. Which i take to be a sign of the changing times. Thank ->-bleeped-<-ing god. (Actually, Autostraddle is possibly the safest online space I've found for queer trans girls.)

And no I'm not going on the facebook page to talk to a women who thinks my identity is invalid / ascribes characteristics and experiences to me that are inaccurate. I don't waste my breath on those people. But feel free if you want to.

(Note: as soon as this thread gets vile and offensive, and it will. I'm removing this and all posts of mine so I don't have to keep looking at it. Just so you know.)

Idk, honestly I can see why cis lesbians would be uncomfortable with the trans lesbian population. Because not every MTF is finished with transition and passable and maybe not even fully female-identified. I think that should be their choice, you can't force people to be inclusive and even if you do it's not pleasant for anyone.

Maybe it's discriminatory but it's also a private event, so, there are other things to do in life (if you even wanted to go to the MWMF anyway, which frankly I can't fathom  ).

Quote from: pretty on May 02, 2012, 04:43:27 PM
Idk, honestly I can see why cis lesbians would be uncomfortable with the trans lesbian population. Because not every MTF is finished with transition and passable and maybe not even fully female-identified.

And I'm sure not all of the AFAB women who go to the MWMF are fully female-identified.  Plus the fact that they allow FTMs of all transitional phases in but not transwomen.  So a man is a woman but a woman is not?

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 02, 2012, 05:43:35 PM
And I'm sure not all of the AFAB women who go to the MWMF are fully female-identified.  Plus the fact that they allow FTMs of all transitional phases in but not transwomen.  So a man is a woman but a woman is not?

Well, I'm saying I could see why they might be uncomfortable, not making an argument or something. Again it's a private event so they're entitled to let in who they want, even if it seems ridiculous.

But I also meant in places like lesbian bars or whatever... I don't think lesbians should be expected to be open to MTFs, even if just because it could be psychologically hard?

Allowing FTMs is pretty silly though (though IMO an FTM actually going is even sillier). I wonder what would happen if an FTM that looked like Sylvester Stallone walked in. 

Quote from: pretty on May 02, 2012, 08:56:19 PM
Again it's a private event so they're entitled to let in who they want, even if it seems ridiculous.

Actually, I agree. I wouldn't want Michfest to be forced to accept trans women. Either they want to or they don't. And if they don't, why the hell would I want to be there anyway? Yes, lets go hang out with a bunch of bigots who think I'm a bloke wanting to rape them! Sounds super extra special fun. Totally going on my list of places to visit.

I only heard about this recently but I'm sure the subject's been beaten to death by a lot of people. I'm sorry if I've hit a sore spot by bringing it back up.

The separate but equal language and the second class citizenship language are really disturbing. It shocks me to hear it coming from lesbians, honestly. They should see it for what it is.

I agree that they have a right to run it however they want since it's a private event. That doesn't mean I don't have a beef with it. How to approach it is key though. I would hope to encourage some compassion.

My feeling is that if you are a woman and you want to go then go but don't explain yourself to anyone (especially if you transitioned M2F).  I do feel that a group of people has a right to have an assembly that is only for men or women (in the context of this festival).  It is a lot easier to get forgiveness than to get permission.  My manner of living is that I am a woman and women don't need to explain themselves, they just are.  So if I feel like using a women's restroom, clinic, festival or whatever then I do.  And because I have a vagina I can also use a woman's locker room etc.  It comes down to being sensible and if you are a woman (whether you transitioned or not are are transitioning) then act like one.  Don't act like a trans person or a transgender who has to explain everything and get permission all the time.  Be sensible, know your limitations...

If you are someone who just wants to create conflict and interfere with gendered gathering why not find some other way to occupy your time?

There are two sides to every story and honestly I don't care enough to rehash this subject or to learn about what their strategy is for 2012.  But my advice applies broad spectrum to many other situations.

Peace all.

Another thing...

Law of Attraction.

Whatever you focus on you will get more of.  Whatever you think about you will get more of.  If you focus on the Michigan Women's Festival as a situation where there is prejudice and non-acceptance then you will get more non-acceptance.  If you go there angry, demanding your "rights" then you will get more conflict because if you do that you are all about non-acceptance and conflict.  If you want acceptance and peace then focus on that.  I have seen a lot of trans people on forums over the years stir the hatred pot and get all up in their heads about all the non-acceptance and conflict without realizing that they are perpetuating it.

For every force their is an equal and opposite force.  You shove someone and they push back.  You get in someone's face and start accusing and they become defensive.  A little awareness never hurt anyone O_o self awareness is a good thing, seeing the forest and not just a couple of trees is the bigger picture.

There is power in one's thoughts and in one's focus, words have power.  You don't generate peace and equality by attacking a group of people who want to gather at a festival, you don't come in like spies or masqueraders or by demanding they change their rules.  If you are a woman then be a woman and do what a woman would do.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

Quote from: dalebert on May 03, 2012, 01:50:33 AM
The separate but equal language and the second class citizenship language are really disturbing. It shocks me to hear it coming from lesbians, honestly. They should see it for what it is.

Wow, that's all innocent and adorable right there. Underprivileged minority groups have a long and glorious history of treading on the fingers of the next people up the ladder.

Really a lot of this comes down to cycles of abuse. People who are treated like ->-bleeped-<- are that much more likely to treat other, weaker people like ->-bleeped-<-. 'Cause it's a way to reclaim a feeling of control and power. It's a thing. With like research and stuff behind it.

And it's great how everyone recycles the language. Gotta love tradition.

Quote from: dalebert on May 03, 2012, 01:50:33 AM
I agree that they have a right to run it however they want since it's a private event. That doesn't mean I don't have a beef with it. How to approach it is key though. I would hope to encourage some compassion.

Have you read some of the stuff written by the people who attend this thing? I can't even link to it 'cause it's so vile the mods will remove it.

I don't want their compassion. I'm doing pretty okay. They're the monsters.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 03, 2012, 03:20:47 AM
Wow, that's all innocent and adorable right there. Underprivileged minority groups have a long and glorious history of treading on the fingers of the next people up the ladder.

Really a lot of this comes down to cycles of abuse. People who are treated like ->-bleeped-<- are that much more likely to treat other, weaker people like ->-bleeped-<-. 'Cause it's a way to reclaim a feeling of control and power. It's a thing. With like research and stuff behind it.

You don't even have to branch out to other letters of the LGBT spectrum.  The different Ts do it to each other!