Quote from: Sybil on April 30, 2012, 06:57:44 AM
Hi again apple pie,

I had a highly passable voice for a while, but it was difficult to maintain and put a lot of strain on me. I actually lost it for a bit at one point, which made it feel unreliable. As hard as it was to give it up, I did, because I realized it wasn't really a healthy option for my vocal chords and the like. I'm trying to find new options now, and I'm making progress on yet another voice that, while requiring effort and practice, doesn't put unreal amounts of strain on me.

The whole two years thing is as it is because I keep going through voices like this. After I stick to one thing for a while, I find something about it that just feels fundamentally flawed. I try to give them all a chance, though, because I realize a lot of it is muscle development and endurance. I guess part of my previous posts were a bit about that, and wishing that people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice. The results I've seen from most of the people who have subscribed to her are astounding, and what's more (as per Stephe's example) things like yelling are available, too.

Here's an example, which I mentioned before, of the sort of stuff I'm talking about: speaking from the front of your face; I know that when I first started, I concentrated all of my effort in my throat (I bet this sounds familiar to a LOT of you), and speaking from the front of my face was something I just decided to try as intuition and experimentation lead me there -- but it felt that I found it completely by chance. Since then, it's become such an integrated part of any new voice I develop or work on because it just works so well, can be improved on, and really doesn't take a lot of effort. What else am I missing like this, though? Until I really adopt a voice I'm both happy with and comfortable using, I'll never feel confident that I know what I need to use or develop.

To risk sounding like a broken record, it would be really nice to know what methods these women are using, even if they aren't going to work for everyone. They'd be something that other people could try - at least they'd know some generally successful things to put their minds to, as opposed to going at it blindly (or unsafely, which is my primary concern) and wondering in the dark what roads they might be taken down. Stephe was right in all she said about voice affecting your quality of life, it really is such a huge deal and I know that firsthand. It's also not a completely safe venture to take on your own. My only gripe is that I think more women could achieve their voice on their own time and merit if they just knew what fundamental methods to tackle and how to be safe. I don't think the whole $750 would be necessary for a lot of people at that point -- and let's face it, most trans women could really use any penny they can save. I know I could.

Hello again

Hmmm... I think I am getting the feeling that you want a Kathe Perez-trained voice very specifically...
It seems that you believe that's the best voice, and others are all somehow flawed.

Would it be correct if I sum up what you want to say as the following?
"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

I am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.
It's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

I don't think that's what she meant, though. And I, at least, found your post helpful.☆

apple pie,

That is absolutely not what I meant and there is really no indication of that anywhere. I thanked you for what you shared and admitted using a good portion of it, finding it, as I might recall I said, "wonderful." I really did show my appreciation for you, and continued to discuss my feelings with you as you replied to them. Should I not be the one who is offended that you attacked me because my feelings did not fit to your scope, and the level of gratitude or appreciation I had showed you did not meet your quota for me? However, I am not, but I am sad that you felt the need to chastise me when I felt we were otherwise getting along, on a topic that was no less quite a bit about me and not about you.

Quote"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

What was the purpose of attacking me like this? Not only did I lay my feelings out for you politely, I laid them out bare. I made it quite clear that I think -information- should be more readily available, but that I still easily and wholly understand that personalized coaching and instruction should not be. To risk a metaphor to describe my feelings: I think that voice methodology is often treated like a recipe or trade secret, and that I think that is just plain WRONG. It's something that's a quality of life issue for thousands of people. Nowhere did I, as you suggested, imply that someone should babysit me and tell me how to perfect that recipe. That is a chef's job. I simply want knowledge of the ingredients, and I implied nothing to the contrary. The primary difference here is that we're talking about a minority's livelihood, and not food.

QuoteI am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.
It's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

These are unfair assertions for many of the same reasons I explained above. I like the work I've seen Kathe Perez perform, and she has had by far the highest consistency that I have encountered. Is it not human, even logical, practical to want to pursue something that is shown to be fundamentally sound? The only voicework I've admitted here that I -feel- I -personally- do not like is CandiFLA's, and I described my reasoning for that.

Again, I simply don't understand why you would turn tooth and claw on me like this. I was very genuine and honest with you, and as I again explained, said nothing to indicate I wanted to take advantage of anything or anyone. At worst, I implied I wanted healthier roads for the community at large and used myself as an example as to why I would want them.

Hi there

Firstly, I don't quite understand fully why you feel what I said was an attack on you... I did not intend that at all.
But it doesn't matter whether I understand why or not, or whether I intended it or not...
Since you do feel offended and attacked, I have done something bad and I should apologize to you.
So, I sincerely apologize for making you feel offended, and for making you feel that I have attacked you.

Secondly, it seems that I must have misunderstood what you meant then, though I don't see where yet. Maybe you might be able to help me understand it better. I must say, though, I did not say that you wanted someone to babysit you. That isn't what I meant by "tell"; passing information, like you just mentioned, is exactly what I meant.

Now maybe you can help me understand: you have mentioned the word "share" many times in your previous posts. For example,

• you said that you hoped "people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice";
• you said that you think "it is wrong not to share that information";
• you asked if people are "so unwilling to share the right way to do something for a very genuine problem",

and in a few other places as well... and thus, I surmised that you wanted this information for free / without paying.

So since "for free" was the idea I had, in the summary in my previous post,

• "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you?" is a re-wording of (1) above, and
• "I shouldn't have to pay for it" is implied by (2).

So they were meant as a summary of what I felt you were saying, and were not meant as an attack on you. But maybe you could explain to me where my understanding is wrong?

apple pie,

The context you used to reply implies that you take issue with my feelings and were offended, thus propelling you to exaggerate my stance on the matter. I felt I already explained why I felt this way, but I will continue to elaborate. If it wasn't intended as an attack by you, that's fine, but it very sincerely came across as one.

Now here is some additional reasoning I felt (and somewhat continue to feel, despite your sincere context) you have attacked me, or at the very least "put words in my mouth:"

QuoteNow maybe you can help me understand: you have mentioned the word "share" many times in your previous posts. For example,

• you said that you hoped "people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice";
• you said that you think "it is wrong not to share that information";
• you asked if people are "so unwilling to share the right way to do something for a very genuine problem",

and in a few other places as well... and thus, I surmised that you wanted this information for free / without paying.

So since "for free" was the idea I had, in the summary in my previous post,

• "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you?" is a re-wording of (1) above, and
• "I shouldn't have to pay for it" is implied by (2).

So they were meant as a summary of what I felt you were saying, and were not meant as an attack on you. But maybe you could explain to me where my understanding is wrong?

I underlined and bolded where your take on what I said becomes an incorrect assertion of my feelings, and I will also explain how you used (or at least seemed to use) context to attack me and misconstrue both my intent and my position.

Throughout what I have shared, I have only ever indicated that I wanted the information pertaining to voice augmentation to be readily available. I specifically cited that I did not want anyone to be coached for free, which is what Kathe Perez is really or justifiably selling. The absence of a sale is what makes something free. The fact of the matter is, there is no way that the knowledge of what parts of your mouth and throat are used to engineer a fully functioning female voice is exclusive to Kathe Perez. To assume that this is true would be facetious on many levels. If the knowledge WERE exclusive to her (or anyone else) and it was being hoarded as a secret, that, in addition to the belief that it would be okay, is what I said would be wrong.  However, it is clear that she does know, and she is a if not the only famous example. Thus, I used the idea of her knowledge - which is not exclusive to her - but not her practice - which is exclusive to her - for the discussion.

By the use of your word "how," you indicate both knowledge and practice. Asking for the practice for free makes me seem like a selfish and unreasonable person. When I made continuous efforts to indicate that was not my intent, and I am still irregardless accused of it, that makes me feel attacked.

I will again quote your original post and break it down further for you:

Quote from: apple pie on April 30, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Hello again

Hmmm... I think I am getting the feeling that you want a Kathe Perez-trained voice very specifically...

I never said I wanted hers specifically. In fact, I said I'd like to know if the knowledge she purports to entertain - again, but not her coaching - is available elsewhere. Focus on knowledge.

QuoteIt seems that you believe that's the best voice, and others are all somehow flawed.

I never said that I felt any voice but CandiFLA's was not for me. I also never said that the "Kathe Perez" voice was the best. At worst, I implied I am happy with hers for me. You are applying universal thought to my individual one. In the individual context, there is nothing wrong with it. In the universal context, it could be seen as offensive. Accusing me of that when I was not doing so could be seen as an attack on me.

I talked about how the "Kathe Perez" voice methods were safe, and I'd like to see that available for the community. As I said earlier in this post, the knowledge is not exclusive to her, but it is proven. At no point, and certainly by no logical assertion, does this indicate that "all" other voices (methods) are flawed.

QuoteWould it be correct if I sum up what you want to say as the following?
"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

No, it would not be correct, as I explained above. Furthermore, this line carries terrible context. It sounds like a spoiled child speaking. You could carry the exact same message by simply saying, "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me how she trained you?" - your insertion of "free" and "because I shouldn't have to pay for it" genuinely serve no function except to incriminate intent.

QuoteI am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.

I only spoke of how some of us are faced with paying for a voice for the wrong or unfulfilled reasons. At no point did I ever say OR indicate that the purchase of a voice is what made it valid or superior. You created this sentiment for me. It helps outline the rest of your post as taking issue with me.

QuoteIt's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

Why would it have to be YOUR fault? That implies blame, what are we blaming anyone for here? Misunderstanding? To me, that's really silly, and makes me feel as though you took offense. Additionally, how do you know I didn't want what you shared? Was it when I said that your advice was wonderful and has worked for me in the past? It was very hard for me not to take this as you being offended by and/or attacking me.

If you genuinely weren't trying to take issue with me, that's great, I'm happy. I'm only explaining to you how it felt that you were because you asked me to. I am frankly a bit embarrassed that I have already been a part of derailing Maja.V's thread so much. I doubt most people would or will want to read up to and beyond this point, and that has a hurtful impact on her, for which I am sorry.

Hello Sybil

I see that my words have really made you feel terrible...
I was uncertain in what I felt you were saying, but it seems that I had given you the impression that I was asserting those things as truth.
I accept fully that what I thought must have been wrong.

I want to reiterate that I am sorry to have made you feel that way.
I would like to stress that I sincerely mean this apology, and I am not just saying it without meaning it.

Sybil, I feel really bad when I end up in conflict with someone... I really hate it...
It's something I never intended, it's something I shouldn't have done, and yet I have done it...
I hope you will understand how I feel about this conflict I have caused, and forgive me for responding to all you have said in your last post only very briefly:
I admit I am wrong. This is all my fault. I'm truly sorry...

apple pie,

It's okay, I don't want you to worry about it at all. I don't feel terrible, either. As I said at the end of my last reply to you: I'm happy if you didn't really mean any of it. In another reply to you, I also mentioned being sad that we weren't getting along as we seemed to be; I'm genuinely not a stranger to disliking conflict, I understand how you feel.

Is English not your native language? Your English is very clear and contains excellent grammar, though I ask because your choice of prose is fairly unique (especially considering your excellent grammar and clarity). I also ask because of the Japanese in your signature. I have often been told that my prose is also unique despite being raised around English speakers, so please don't take this to mean I feel that you are the only contributor to the misunderstanding. I do not feel that way in the least.

If English is not your native tongue, I think I can see how it would be easy for there to have been confusion among us. Context is perhaps one of the most difficult things to understand in any language, and becomes even more so on the internet without tone. Because your English was so well-spoken, I did not want to assume (or presume) anything about it, for several reasons: I didn't want to offend you. A lot of people find this question offensive. I also didn't want to make you think there was anything wrong with your ability to communicate, because there isn't.

Honestly, even if language was not the reason, I don't want you to feel upset or beat yourself up about it. You tried to help me, and I sincerely appreciate that. This thread is not the first time you have made that effort, either, and I haven't forgotten. I was not upset at you when thinking you attacked me, I was mostly confused and feeling as though I had to defend myself. Please don't take it to mean that I think any less of you or want us to be at odds, discomfort, or an inability to grow together in the future. I really, genuinely do not feel that way and really am happiest if you share in the same feelings.

Sybil, I'm really glad, and very relieved, to read your words of understanding.
It would really pain me if by what I said, I made an enemy here...
You're right, I didn't grow up speaking English, though I have lived in an English-speaking country for quite a long while now.
I think I can see that what I wrote is unusual, but I don't really know why people wouldn't usually write the way I do...

And your words have made me felt better too. Thank you, Sybil...