These people go around saying they're a "transguy" or "an FTM" and making this the central part of their identity.

But how can they be? In order to actually be FTM (female-to-male), you have to identify as male. In other words, identifying as FTM does not make you FTM -- identifying as male does.

A more accurate term would be female-to-trans, or just transgender.

<pics removed>

Input? If you disagree, I don't think you'll ever convince me to think they're guys, but I would love it if you tried.

I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "identifying as FtM".  Is it possible they just use that terminology instead of saying they identify as male because it seems to carry less stigma in that it does contain the word "female".

On the pictures:

I can't say anything because I dress like that.  I wear dress, tight tops, tight jeans, etc.  I also wear make-up on the rare occasion and do my hair.  I just enjoy looking nice...and girl clothes are all flow-y, which I like.

Quote from: Lynn Gabriel on May 12, 2012, 02:42:47 PM
I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "identifying as FtM".  Is it possible they just use that terminology instead of saying they identify as male because it seems to carry less stigma in that it does contain the word "female".

They identify solely as "FTM", that is their gender identity instead of male. I understand if someone says they're FTM for the sake of allowing other people to know they're trans, but in that circumstance it isn't their identity so that's different.

How does the word female carry less stigma?

Different strokes for different folks.  There are some guys who don't identify as FtM and just identify as male.  Then you have Femme Ftm's out there.  I found (for me personally) that it's easier to embrace the feminine side once you are secure in your identity.

I can't say why those gentlemen identify as FtM instead of male. Maybe they are embracing their roots?  Perhaps they are making a statement?  Maybe they just want to make things more difficult?  Maybe they see FtM and male as a different concept as most biomen don't have to go through what transguys go through?

To each is their own.

Have you tried asking them what they mean? Gender identities and labels vary from person to person.

I'm not sure why it matters how they identify. That's their business. For some people, being trans is central to their gender identity.

Also, why are you posting pictures of them dressing femme as "evidence"? They look quite young; maybe they don't feel safe coming out and are contextualizing their closeted selves as "drag." And you ought to at least obscure their faces on the photos. I doubt they told you it was alright for you to post them here. 

I actually identify as an ftm male. Why? Because I used to identify as female (I have NOT always "known") and now I identify as male. I don't really think it matters and frankly, I don't care what people think about it.

Quote from: Marion on May 12, 2012, 02:59:18 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how they identify. That's their business. For some people, being trans is central to their gender identity.

Also, why are you posting pictures of them dressing femme as "evidence"? They look quite young; maybe they don't feel safe coming out and are contextualizing their closeted selves as "drag." And you ought to at least obscure their faces on the photos. I doubt they told you it was alright for you to post them here. 

All photos have been previously made public by the subjects within them.

No, they both said  they naturally dress like that. They are "proud femme FTMs". From my perspective it seems like they're just women pretending to be something they're not.
Normally I wouldn't care what other people do, but this actually affects me because I'm associated with them. NOBODY outside the trans community could possibly see them as male. They make me look bad and like I'm "trans" too rather than male. I can't help but care. Nobody will take me seriously if I'm associated with these people.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on May 12, 2012, 03:07:47 PM
I actually identify as an ftm male. Why? Because I used to identify as female (I have NOT always "known") and now I identify as male. I don't really think it matters and frankly, I don't care what people think about it.

That's different because of the part I bolded. I have no problem with you.

I feel like this is identity policing. There are cis guys out there that crossdress all the time...are they not male simply for how they present themselves?

There are some trans people who do identify strongly with being trans as opposed to feeling strongly about identifying as a man, and that's okay. I actually know one trans guy that also considers himself femme, and often dresses in drag. He's a feminine guy, and partially does it because of his current situation. He was previously on testosterone but due to financial reasons had to stop. In order to get a job and pay for rent he had to live as female. Some people have to do certain things to survive. Some people feel more male than others.

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
They identify solely as "FTM", that is their gender identity instead of male. I understand if someone says they're FTM for the sake of allowing other people to know they're trans, but in that circumstance it isn't their identity so that's different.

How does the word female carry less stigma?

To me, it just adds on that they are female bodied and that it may confuse people. -shrug-  Some people also aren't fully comfortable coming out and saying they identify as male.

I naturally dress up, too.  I am more inclined towards flowing and feminine clothes than masculine clothes (at least modern day ones -- I much prefer the styles prior to 1800).  However, I identify as male.  I am not someone pretending to be this way.  I also doubt anyone outside of the trans community will see me as male given I like to dress in certain garments, until I start the process of transitioning.   

I can't see why it's wrong to dress feminine and to identify as a feminine male.  Not everyone is going to fit the same mold.

It could be argued that I am not female. I would even agree with that to an extant, as I still have male-specific anatomy. Therefore, it could be argued that I will remain male until I have SRS.

At this point, I identify as a woman who is a mildly genderqueer male-to-female transsexual. How I identify is not any less valid than how anyone else might choose to identify. A "femme FTM" is a guy to me, if that's how they identify. Who am I, and who are any of us, to question these identities? If we challenge and invalidate the identities of others, we grant permission for them to do the same.

How about a live and let live policy instead?

Quote from: Nygeel on May 12, 2012, 03:15:47 PM
I feel like this is identity policing. There are cis guys out there that crossdress all the time...are they not male simply for how they present themselves?

There are some trans people who do identify strongly with being trans as opposed to feeling strongly about identifying as a man, and that's okay. I actually know one trans guy that also considers himself femme, and often dresses in drag. He's a feminine guy, and partially does it because of his current situation. He was previously on testosterone but due to financial reasons had to stop. In order to get a job and pay for rent he had to live as female. Some people have to do certain things to survive. Some people feel more male than others.

No, you're misunderstanding me. Trans guys can be as feminine as they want. I'm aware that being feminine does not equal being female.

The problem is that, not only are these people not masculine, they're not male because they don't identify that way.  So if they're not male how can they be FTM? That is an inherent contradiction.

Quote from: Lynn Gabriel on May 12, 2012, 03:20:37 PM
I can't see why it's wrong to dress feminine and to identify as a feminine male.  Not everyone is going to fit the same mold.

It's not wrong. They don't identify as feminine males, but feminine FTMs. They are misrepresenting what "FTM" actually is, since being FTM involves being male, and their identities dictate that they're not. They openly admit this, so I'm not "gender policing".

There's no set-in-stone rules to being ftm, or identifying as so. Moreover, they can identify as ftm and physically present themselves as however they'd like to.

I do understand your point though. I was the same way when I first started transitioning (not saying that you just started). I was on youtube and came across and ftm who dressed as female sometimes and it really angered me because I felt that they need to either be a man or a woman and people won't take me seriously because they dress as a female sometimes. However, I eventually came around and understood that they can identify and present themselves however they want to.

As far as people not taking you seriously if you're associated with these people, well you don't have to associate with them. No one is forcing you to associate with the trans/ftm community. . .

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:21:57 PM
No, you're misunderstanding me. Trans guys can be as feminine as they want. I'm aware that being feminine does not equal being female.

The problem is that, not only are these people not masculine, they're not male because they don't identify that way.  So if they're not male how can they be FTM? That is an inherent contradiction.

It's not. They don't identify as feminine males, but feminine FTMs. They are misrepresenting what "FTM" actually is, since being FTM involves being male, and their identities dictate that they're not. They openly admit this, so I'm not "gender policing".

You're saying that they're not as they identify. Does it really matter how they identify?

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:08:21 PM
No, they both said  they naturally dress like that. They are "proud femme FTMs". From my perspective it seems like they're just women pretending to be something they're not.

Well, many (most?) drag queens identify as male but dress as women for performance purposes. It's performance. Gender-play. Sure, I know it's not a perfect example, but it might give you a different way of looking at it.

I should also point out that a very female-identified woman can wear a man's suit and a very male-identified man can wear a dress, and those people still identify as they identify.

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:08:21 PMNormally I wouldn't care what other people do, but this actually affects me because I'm associated with them. NOBODY outside the trans community could possibly see them as male. They make me look bad and like I'm "trans" too rather than male. I can't help but care. Nobody will take me seriously if I'm associated with these people.

When you say that you're associated with them, does that mean that you socialize with them or that they are part of the larger trans community? If you know them personally, you can stop hanging out with them. If you don't, you're pretty much stuck. I would ignore them as much as possible.

I see your concern, but it's something that we all face. If I come out to people (which I don't really do, but let's assume that I did), I wouldn't want people saying I'm like Chaz Bono or "that pregnant trans man."

And look at it this way. People like the ones in the pictures might be the ones who, perhaps decades from now, really punch home the point that our identities are primarily what's inside and not necessarily how we appear to others.

Quote from: Arch on May 12, 2012, 03:28:39 PM
When you say that you're associated with them, does that mean that you socialize with them or that they are part of the larger trans community? If you know them personally, you can stop hanging out with them. If you don't, you're pretty much stuck. I would ignore them as much as possible.

I see your concern, but it's something that we all face. If I come out to people (which I don't really do, but let's assume that I did), I wouldn't want people saying I'm like Chaz Bono or "that pregnant trans man."

And look at it this way. People like the ones in the pictures might be the ones who, perhaps decades from now, really punch home the point that our identities are primarily what's inside and not necessarily how we appear to others.

I mean they're all over the internet misrepresenting something that they're not even a part of. If anyone I know IRL sees their posts and generalizes them onto me, they will get an impression that is very wrong. It's exactly like what you said about the pregnant man and Chaz Bono, same concept.

Meh, we can only speculate about what they'll do in the future.

they are just confused about themselves and terminology.

trouble is that people like this muddy the waters and make srs seem a waste of time and money that should be legislated out of existence.

When the great unwashed and the health service bean counters see girls like this they thnk: 'born female, looks and happy to be seen as female so whats all this nonsense about crossdressing males claiming to be women and needing srs?'

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:36:04 PM
I mean they're all over the internet misrepresenting something that they're not even a part of. If anyone I know IRL sees their posts and generalizes them onto me, they will get an impression that is very wrong. It's exactly like what you said about the pregnant man and Chaz Bono, same concept.

I understand what you see as a contradiction in terminology, and it puzzles me, too. But I do defend their right to label themselves as they wish, and I don't really care how they identify unless someone else comes along and assumes that I identify the same way. In such a situation, I would do my best to explain myself.

If you really want to understand, start a dialogue with them. They might even reconsider their self-labeling. If you want to blast them, that's a different story.

Maybe they really are confused about what the labels usually mean. How will you know until you ask?

Quote from: Arch on May 12, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
I understand what you see as a contradiction in terminology, and it puzzles me, too. But I do defend their right to label themselves as they wish, and I don't really care how they identify unless someone else comes along and assumes that I identify the same way. In such a situation, I would do my best to explain myself.

If you really want to understand, start a dialogue with them. They might even reconsider their self-labeling. If you want to blast them, that's a different story.

Maybe they really are confused about what the labels usually mean. How will you know until you ask?

I agree with all of this. 

If you don't start a dialogue with them how will you know what the deal is (not that it's really any of your business anyways).  Do they say they 100% of the time dress this way?

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 04:16:00 PM
I agree with all of this. 

If you don't start a dialogue with them how will you know what the deal is (not that it's really any of your business anyways).  Do they say they 100% of the time dress this way?

I did talk to them. Yeah they dress that way regularly and they don't consider themselves male, but still consider themselves FTM and anyone who says otherwise is a "gender police". These aren't just isolated cases either. In fact the FTM tag on Tumblr is full of these people.