Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?

Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
Acronyms aside, it makes you unhappy human being to happy human being.

Yeah, that's a great way to describe it!   

Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
Acronyms aside, it makes you unhappy human being to happy human being.

UHBtHHB?

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
UHBtHHB?

Gesundheit!

Flippancy aside, I think this has been a very thought-provoking thread.

Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 07:09:55 PM
So, what does that make me then? For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't identify as female as I am still anatomically male. My sex is still male, but my gender is woman. To rephrase a comment you made earlier in this thread, am I MTT: male to trans? I don't think that I am, because trans is not the endpoint. Trans is the process, female is the endpoint. But, I'm still in process.

Would be more accurate to say I'm not MTF (male-to-female) but MTW (man-to-woman)?

You're a woman. The difference is clear when you say "my gender is woman" rather than "my gender is transwoman". I'm saying that with these people, the ones that make me angry, trans is the endpoint. The purpose of their transition is to be FTM instead of male, but ironically, by not being male, they cannot be FTM either.

Male-to-trans would apply if your gender identity was "MTF" instead of woman and your entire goal was to be trans, not to be female.

I honestly don't know how I can break it down any further than this...

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 07:29:59 PM
I honestly don't know how I can break it down any further than this...

I think you've been doing a great job breaking it down, actually. As more questions are put to you, you seem to be making your position clearer, to me at least.

This has been a very thought-provoking thread, indeed.

Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 07:29:59 PM
by not being male, they cannot be FTM either.

If you want to get super duper technical here, we aren't male either.  We are female by genetics, unless there is some sort of underlying intersex condition.  And no amount of transitioning will change genetics (yet) so maybe it's more comfortable for them to id that way?

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:13:52 PM
Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?

I still wonder this.

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:58:55 PM
If you want to get super duper technical here, we aren't male either.  We are female by genetics, unless there is some sort of underlying intersex condition.  And no amount of transitioning will change genetics (yet) so maybe it's more comfortable for them to id that way?

We're equivocating on the word "male"; I am referring to gender identity and I think you're referring to physical sex. I don't really understand what else you're trying to say here. Mind re-phrasing?

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:13:52 PM
Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?

Possible but I'm not sure we can definitively prove what their reason is. In that scenario it doesn't bother me since they'll change their identity when they get out of the situation. It probably is true for some and not for others... who knows.

But, what if they aren't able to get out of that situation?

In theory, there should not be any reasons that I couldn't get SRS. But, things like money or other health issues could prevent that from happening.

You are saying that because the purpose of their transition is to be come an FTM and not a male, which for all purposes an FTM is a male (I would just describe them as a non-stealth trans male), they cannot be FTMs.

I'm saying we cannot be FTMs or males either since we are not really transitioning to genetically male.  We are just transitioning to the physical appearance of male/are still genetically female. 


FWIW I see someone IDing as FTM as the same as someone who uses trans man/male as part of their identity modifiers.

I've met a couple of people IRL who actively identify as FTMs and most assuredly NOT as men. I believe they started out as fairly separatist, anti-male lesbians, though. They didn't want to hang out with cis men but would spend time with trans men.

Of course, man is not the same as male.

Bottom line for me?

Wanting to have your cake and eat it.

Be ~ female, and at the same time 'claim' some of what ever 'male privilege' one might think is out there. Some kind of über female? Hey, I'm FtM...

Want to 'buy into it'?
Up to one's personal mind set. If you dig it, just fine.
I do not think it has to do with "policing" of any kind, to at least question it, - just some sort of common sense?
And it smacks of arrogance of some sort as well – to me.

Axélle

I feel like in the trans community, you get a lot of gender blenders and mix-n'-matchers as opposed to the assumption you might make that things are as simple and obvious as the terms imply.

A lot of times the actual genderedness of the label someone is defining themselves by has nothing to do with who they are, how they think or feel or want to present to the world. Personally I think that's just bad labeling but then people are free to do that if they really want.

It's pretty confusing but, well, this is all just talking about ideals. In the end, it's not about how you identify, it's not about what you ascribe to yourself...it's about the face you put forth. It's about how you act and how you come across to people. That's what matters in daily life and in your interactions with the world. If it feels contrived, people are gonna notice. That's just how it is, for better or for worse. 

 I have removed the last three messages as first was against ToS and the subsequent ones quoted the message I deleted.

Cindy James
Global Moderator.

I'm exhausted and it's 4:30 AM here and I feel that I should let you know that I am going to bed now, but I will respond to Andy properly tomorrow, when I can keep my eyes open. What he said has prompted me to come to a realization that I have overlooked some details.

Quote from: Axelle on May 13, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Be ~ female, and at the same time 'claim' some of what ever 'male privilege' one might think is out there. Some kind of über female? Hey, I'm FtM...

An intriguing idea, but I don't see a shred of male privilege here; so if male privilege IS a factor, people are likely deluding themselves. Anyway, I haven't talked to these people, so I have no idea where they're coming from.

I identify as ftm male

I identify as male
I also identify as ftm..

I dont think there is a transexual who would say he/she only identifyd ftm/mtf but not as a man/woman.
as you say its a part of it, but it dosent make it inrealistic not to identify both as a man with some other life experience than regulary cis-guys.

To me it seems like these people (based on what you're saying) would probably be more accurately described as genderqueer/something else other than male or female, but are identifying with the ftm community, probably because either they have shared experiences, or they just really want to be part of a community and can't find one for their more specific identity. And while I can see why the latter would confuse the issue, I don't know what's the problem with the former. I mean, there are people who've physically/socially transitioned in a typical "ftm" way and yet they don't identify as male, even though they went from being perceived as female to being perceived as male. It seems reasonable for them to consider themselves "ftm" if they want to, because they share so many experiences with other people who consider themselves ftm.

I also think that a lot of people might just be going through a phase where they're still coming to terms with being trans. If you're uncertain and you realize there are a bunch of people who don't identify as strictly male or female, you think "oh thank goodness, I can just be that, and don't have to do all this transitioning stuff that seems terrifying and unfeasible." But if you actually are male, you'd probably find yourself gravitating towards terms like ftm, even if you haven't worked it all through yet.

If you're a kid and you have no support system then it's much easier to only go halfway, if you can live with it. I know when I was 13-14 I was all "I'm a boy, I'm going to get surgery and hormones, but I'm not transgender, oh no, because that is far too unlikely, I mean what are the odds?!" Which is kind of the opposite of what these people are doing, but all I'm saying is that being extremely illogical about it is something that happens.

I refer to myself as a trans man. I don't specifically say I "identify" as FTM, as such, but FTM is a part of what and who I am and nothing I can or will ever do will remove my past from me. I can not change the past.
This doesn't make me any less of a man and a part of me resents the suggestion that these guys aren't "guys" because they don't identify as 100% male or consider themselves "femme" because to me this implies that I, being that I am a trans man and don't hide or reject the trans part of my existence, am somehow less a man for it.

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 09:33:50 PM
You are saying that because the purpose of their transition is to be come an FTM and not a male, which for all purposes an FTM is a male (I would just describe them as a non-stealth trans male), they cannot be FTMs.

... What you said here caused me to realize something I overlooked. Their gender identity doesn't reflect their gender.

To be more specific, they inaccurately identify their gender as "FTM" when really their gender is either male or female. This is because "FTM" isn't a gender at all, it describes a physical and social process. The people who ID with it simply have a gender identity which doesn't dictate what their gender actually is.

If they're female, they're one of the pretenders I spoke of earlier. If they're male, I guess they just find the "trans" part significant for whatever reason. But they are no less male.

In other words, being a guy isn't defined by identifying as male, but rather, being male -- and it's possible to do one without the other.

I am in the wrong here. I apologize.