Rereading some of the posts in this thread got me thinking...

There was a vigorously argued discussion about whether there are traits that are truly male or truly female.

Thirty years ago, I would have argued vigorously that the answer was no.

Why?

Because almost nothing that people said were typical of men seemed to apply to me and a lot of what people said were typical of women did seem to apply. I frequently and vociferously made the claim that men and women were far more similar than people gave the credit for.

I still believe that there's an awful lot of overlap. There's almost nothing you can say about all men or all women, and just about anything you can say about most men will apply to many women and vice versa.

But I could never get anybody to agree with me. And gradually I began noticing the tendencies. More men than women seem to be uncomfortable with emotional vulnerability. More women than men seem to appreciate emotional connection before you got to the point. Etc.

Binaries, all.

Here's what I'm getting at.

To me, as a non-binary, the differences between men's and women's tendencies were harder to see. Because I, personally, was an exception to most of them.

Have other non-binaries had this experience? Having difficulty spotting the differences in the way men and women tend to be because of our personal experiences with gender?

Quote from: agfrommd on May 20, 2012, 08:07:16 PM
Have other non-binaries had this experience? Having difficulty spotting the differences in the way men and women tend to be because of our personal experiences with gender?

The only difference I have ever noticed is that females my age tended to be more vicious, but I later realized that this assessment was false since males can be and are equally vicious.
I didn't even know that people still believed in gender stereotypes until a couple months ago (not including my ex, but he's nuts) and I still can't wrap my head around how. (I also still don't know what all of them are, but the ones I have heard are like...  what the fridge?)

Quote from: Edge on May 20, 2012, 08:34:15 PM
TI didn't even know that people still believed in gender stereotypes until a couple months ago and I still can't wrap my head around how.

Edge, I hope you're not lumping me with those people. I agree that most stereotypes are overstated and riddled with exceptions.

The only differences between males and female tendencies I give any credence to are those that I've seen with my own eyes over the years.

Of course I'm not the most perceptive person in the world, so I may be seeing stuff that's not there. Being non-binary, it was very hard for me to notice even what I have, since the way other males experienced being male and not-female was very different from my experience.

Agfrommd,

I believe that I wasn't perceptive either of the differences.  I didn't understand that I was non-binary until recently and I am in my early 30s.  So maybe you could say that perception is not really my strong suit.  Maybe one the things that made me not see it is that I was always bullied for being feminine so I might have blocked that thing from my mind.

Quote from: Metroland on May 21, 2012, 11:28:30 AM
I was always bullied for being feminine.

I wonder if that is a nearly universal experience of androgynes and TG's born male. I was bullied a lot too as a kid. It didn't help that I was skinny and not athletic and not aggressive enough for it to feel natural to stand up for myself. But looking back, I think some of the bullying had a gender component. I got teased a lot about musical and other tastes that I was too clueless to realize were the sort of things that mostly girls liked.

I am totally confused by the supposed differences.

I think there are supposedly a few things that are really true (or they are nearly always true) men generally have greater upper body strength, women's language abilities are greater, men have better 3D abilities (Though I see some "rearing" possibilities here too. Girls aren't expected to be strong. Boys may not be spoken to as much. More active play that boys are encouraged in builds 3d abilities whereas other types of play does not (I don't know about this, but it seems logical.)

BTW, I was bullied a lot too, but more due to lack of social skills generally. I did play with boys more for a time, so that may have been one more thing. Tom girl traits are too predominant to ever have been an issue, I think.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 21, 2012, 10:16:38 PM
I am totally confused by the supposed differences.

I think there are supposedly a few things that are really true (or they are nearly always true) men generally have greater upper body strength, women's language abilities are greater, men have better 3D abilities (Though I see some "rearing" possibilities here too. Girls aren't expected to be strong. Boys may not be spoken to as much. More active play that boys are encouraged in builds 3d abilities whereas other types of play does not (I don't know about this, but it seems logical.)

The biggest difference I've noticed is that men tend to much less comfortable allowing themselves to be emotionally vulnerable.  In the male world vulnerable feelings tend to be something to avoid or overcome whereas in the female world they tend to be looked at as things to share and cherish.

Usual caveats apply: These are tendencies I've noticed, but there are many men and women they do not apply to (though I haven't met many male exceptions). And this might be just my perception, clouded by my prejudices.

I feel like I had to learn this the hard way. At first I was really perplexed that my male friends reacted so strangely to disclosures that my female friends accepted as a matter of course.

Quote from: agfrommd on May 22, 2012, 07:08:32 AM
In the male world vulnerable feelings tend to be something to avoid or overcome whereas in the female world they tend to be looked at as things to share and cherish.

Hey, that's what my ex said, but only the avoiding part. Ironically, by avoiding his emotional problems, he made them way worse.
As someone who is considered female, I can honestly say that, in the female world, it is more common to share, but it is equally common (perhaps more common, in my experiences) to see emotional problems as things to overcome.

Quote from: Edge on May 22, 2012, 09:04:27 AM
Ironically, by avoiding his emotional problems, he made them way worse.

I can believe that.

I used to imagine that the world of men would wake up and realize that all this emotional bottling up was damaging and hard on them and they'd rebel against it the way women rebelled against the restrictions society had placed on them.

I still think it's damaging and hard on men, but I no longer expect them to rebel. I think most men are happy this way and prefer it to the alternative. Being mix-gendered, I think I had a different perspective than most other males, in that I didn't actually like sitting on my feelings.

Quote from: agfrommd on May 22, 2012, 07:08:32 AM
The biggest difference I've noticed is that men tend to much less comfortable allowing themselves to be emotionally vulnerable.  In the male world vulnerable feelings tend to be something to avoid or overcome whereas in the female world they tend to be looked at as things to share and cherish.

Usual caveats apply: These are tendencies I've noticed, but there are many men and women they do not apply to (though I haven't met many male exceptions). And this might be just my perception, clouded by my prejudices.

I feel like I had to learn this the hard way. At first I was really perplexed that my male friends reacted so strangely to disclosures that my female friends accepted as a matter of course.

I agree, though I don't know how it is developed (or not). You know that vulnerability can be encouraged (or discouraged). For instance, boys are often told not to show emotion or cry.

I've heard that guys on T will say that they are less likely to cry or feel angrier, but not sure if this is an expectation or if it is really hormones.


--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 22, 2012, 06:13:18 PM
I agree, though I don't know how it is developed (or not). You know that vulnerability can be encouraged (or discouraged). For instance, boys are often told not to show emotion or cry.

I've heard that guys on T will say that they are less likely to cry or feel angrier, but not sure if this is an expectation or if it is really hormones.


--Jay Jay

Great point about the reasons why.

I've heard that prolactin, a female hormone, encourages tears.

I can speak about my male body. I find it much harder to cry than most of the females in my life. My body just produces fewer tears when I'm emotional than theirs does.

That being said, since I've started dealing with my mix-gender issues and allowing myself to act feminine when I feel that way, I've found tears a little bit easier, and find myself crying a little bit more.

I don't know about the crying thing, but I know that female hormones can cause anger, mood swings, crying at the drop of a hat, etc among other things. Yeah... pregnancy was interesting. Luckily, I don't think anyone goes through those levels of hormones on a regular basis. Oops I think I digressed from the subject again. Sorry. Anyway, I'd say hormones affect emotions, but I don't know to what extent at normal levels.

Gender as a personality type...

Male bodied me went through all the teasing and bullying that so often happens during school yrs.
It was after graduation that I decided that I would be the most manly man I could be. Mistake. Big Mistake.

I bottled up all those feelings that I thought were fem.
I worked my muscles to an extent that I was very physically tough looking for 5'9".
I had a tough ass attitude about everything and everyone.
Only occasionally would I relax around my secret friends, LGBT people.
I volunteered for a hazardous job that required some of the most evil things I have ever done.
I discovered I really had lost remorse or that I didn't have it in the first place.
I was the prime example of that personality type that is associated with being that manly man.
John Wayne was to nice a guy, I was the Marlboro Man with a bad attitude.
I was an extreme example of that personality type of the male Gender.
Gender as a personality type? Yes.

But the rest of the story goes as an inner implosion of emotions that led to a person without much for feelings.
I spent quite a few yrs doing things that others dared not to.
A legitimate way of committing suicide, I suppose.
Then I did graduate to suicide, I was out of options.
Once again I found myself in that nether world between life and death.
It took some extraordinary circumstances that finally brought me back to what I think is reality.
I am back in touch with that child who couldn't be a boy, couldn't be a girl.
I am a somebody again, at least I think so...

I had practiced by observing and role playing to the point of actually being someone I'm not.
It has given me a unique (I think) view of gender as personalities. They exist.
They aren't what you are told or have seen on TV or in Movies.
They are just a little more one way than the other, not by much.
Especially considering all the feelings and emotions and combinations of, that there are.

Ativan

I don't really see gender as a personality type in itself, but rather, there are associatons between gender and personality traits that tend to be true or believed to be for some majority of people.

Some of those associations are learned and/or reinforced at a very early age, some a bit later into childhood, and I'm willing to accept the possibility that some (but not all) may be more genetically disposed or influenced by hormones.

Sarah Fine's "Delusions of Gender" is an excellent and relevant book for this topic.

Quote from: foosnark on May 29, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
Sarah Fine's "Delusions of Gender" is an excellent and relevant book for this topic.

I highly recommend Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender! More info about it here http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

Z

Cordelia Fine, right.  That's what happens when I rely on memory!

Sorry I haven't been participating. I didn't realize people were still replying to this thread, and haven't been to the boards for a while.

Been reading Delusions of Gender for a while on and off over the past few months. It shows a lot about how utterly sloppy some experiments that 'confirm' gender differences are, and that things like stereotype threat can affect people very strongly whether they want to admit it or not. It's learning about things like this that make me very wary of people when they say they're so sure something is true about gender because of intuition or feeling they have. I still like to take in people's opinions though. There's usually something to it even if we dont know what exactly.

I think because of the LGBT movement happening in the country now are going to radically change the way people see gender within the next decade. fembois, butches, androgynes, etc all challenge the idea that a person being male or female means they will be masculine or feminine respectively. Seeing people like this exist makes me feel that acting feminine/masculine and being female/male are mutually exclusive.

I clearly need to read this Delusions of Gender... a lot of stuff like "men are better at visual/spacial" rings hollow for female-bodied me, who is possibly the best at visual/spatial stuff in the house, and the idea that men are less emotionally vulnerable and cry less seems silly too when I think of the number of guys I know that openly cry during movies! Maybe it's part of me being androgyne that I have traits of both but I'm still curious about the *actual* science--of what is more "hard-wired" and what is more cultural.

But yeah that's getting a little off-topic. I suppose the way that gender is perceived outwardly could be related to personality types, especially the Myers-Briggs... I am an INTP on that, which I think clearly mixes male and female, makes sense, right?  But I think that's really a cultural thing, the outward gender thing--not how you feel your gender is, I mean the gender other people think you are. Some things Americans think of as "male" other cultures might think of as "female" or maybe "both"... like in some cultures (and historically), being emotionally vulnerable is not only acceptable but desirable for men.

Quote from: Ariel on May 31, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
in some cultures (and historically), being emotionally vulnerable is not only acceptable but desirable for men.

Where? I'm on the next plane.

Seriously, I'm quite sure I've never heard of a place like that.

Quote from: Ariel on May 31, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
I clearly need to read this Delusions of Gender... a lot of stuff like "men are better at visual/spacial" rings hollow for female-bodied me, who is possibly the best at visual/spatial stuff in the house, and the idea that men are less emotionally vulnerable and cry less seems silly too when I think of the number of guys I know that openly cry during movies! Maybe it's part of me being androgyne that I have traits of both but I'm still curious about the *actual* science--of what is more "hard-wired" and what is more cultural.

I think you can only say, in a scientific way I mean, that there are tendencies towards something. For instance, males have better upper body strength than females. BUT you have females who have awesome upper body strength that is probably higher than an average male.  But that female (and I am thinking of one) is probably on the 95%+ of the range of upper body muscle strength for females. 3D visual skills are most likely a tendency as well. I have no problem whatsoever with this part, but I do still wonder re: socialization and so forth.

One thign that would be build 3D visual skills would be manipulation of toys and so on. Since boys tend to be socialized to play more actively they would have more opportunities to engage their brains in this way. Meanwhile girls will play more with toys that require language (dress up,  dolls, etc.), so girls would tend to engage their brains more in this way. I think you could take each area that they have found difference in tendencies and pull it apart that way. Including upper body muscle strength-- active toys, being engaged with physically as children, etc.

I think there are now enough parents that raise their children in more androgynous ways that you could actually start trying to tease this apart a bit. I played equally with stuff like trucks, blocks, and dolls (actually since my dolls acted out adventure themes, I had action figures. :-))
I feel my 3D visual skills are only poor because I have a learning disability, but again we can't make generalizations on one person.


--Jay Jay