So I went to the Androgyne forum as was suggested might be helpful to me while exploring my gender. It was helpful in clearing up that I don't want or need such a complicated,convuluded identity. It didn't help me figure out what is up w me but I am clear I will have a gender that is either male or female. Basically I think I do have both feminine and masculine in me and I don't want to stop myself from expressing whatever is true. What I need to get unconfused about is do I feel more or primarily male, in which case I'd want to transition. If they feel equal or lean to feminine I wouldn't transition but would probably do some things to be able to express my masculinity easier like maybe a breast reduction so I could bind convincingly. I still need more time to unravel it all, if transition is nessacary for me. But either id be a soft guy or a masculine girl. Right now, recognizing and being ok with just that part is good. I'll see where the rest goes and what is the best truth for me. In the meantime,i hope it is cool to keep posting here as I explore.

Post away! 

I have an Intersex friend in New Zealand who is able to hold both identities at the same time, which is supposedly impossible for sane people.  It works for her, and she is possibly the sanest person I have ever met.  Maybe something similar can work for you too. 

Karen.

There is never any rush. Which is a problem I think that most of us have because we feel we have been trapped for so long or confused, etc. At the end of the day though, it's better to discover the person you are, and learn to love yourself for it. I'm glad things are working out for you and you can now go on the journey that's right for you

Quote from: dky on May 25, 2012, 08:14:11 AM
So I went to the Androgyne forum as was suggested might be helpful to me while exploring my gender. It was helpful in clearing up that I don't want or need such a complicated,convuluded identity. It didn't help me figure out what is up w me but I am clear I will have a gender that is either male or female. Basically I think I do have both feminine and masculine in me and I don't want to stop myself from expressing whatever is true. What I need to get unconfused about is do I feel more or primarily male, in which case I'd want to transition. If they feel equal or lean to feminine I wouldn't transition but would probably do some things to be able to express my masculinity easier like maybe a breast reduction so I could bind convincingly. I still need more time to unravel it all, if transition is nessacary for me. But either id be a soft guy or a masculine girl. Right now, recognizing and being ok with just that part is good. I'll see where the rest goes and what is the best truth for me. In the meantime,i hope it is cool to keep posting here as I explore.

The "androgyne umbrella" catches all sorts of non-binary persons.

That can include those who feel they embody both, or more than one, gender
It can include those who feel they have no gender
It can include those who feel they are genderfluid

My personal belief is that gender is a continuum.  If you accept that most people identify as one or the other of the end members of the spectrum (male gender or female gender - which is quite apart from the phenotypical sex of the person), then the androgynes fall somewhere in between, or in the case of the Neutrois, Pangendered, and Othergendered, completely off the binary scale.

We're complicated.

Justmeinoz and Stewie, thanks for the welcoming responses. I really appreciate it.

Jamie D, I'm not truthfully sure what make of your response, can't tell if it intended to be educational or what. It seems like you might be invested in my having a particular ourcome to my explorations. I'm not comfortable with that. If I've read you wrong,i apologize.if I've read you right,id appreciate your backing off. Its hard to tell just through a written message.so again, if I misunderstood, apologies.

Quote from: dky on May 25, 2012, 03:25:16 PM
Justmeinoz and Stewie, thanks for the welcoming responses. I really appreciate it.

Jamie D, I'm not truthfully sure what make of your response, can't tell if it intended to be educational or what. It seems like you might be invested in my having a particular ourcome to my explorations. I'm not comfortable with that. If I've read you wrong,i apologize.if I've read you right,id appreciate your backing off. Its hard to tell just through a written message.so again, if I misunderstood, apologies.

I want you to be yourself.  I was just noting that the Androgyne label encompasses a wide variety of people.

This is your journey. I'm just waving to you from trail I'm on. 

Jamie D, sounds like I misread what you meant.i apologize.
Since I've been exploring my masculine identity, I have felt more easy going, mellow, content. I've had almost no anxiety and haven't felt down or depressed. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about what it means. I'm paying attention to it, being curious about it, asking what other factors may be contributing. I'm enjoying the confidence, and I definately don't pass.I'm not trying to at this point. I want to know if I feel different when I try and hopefully do pass at some point. I've ben noticing how it is when I'm called she or woman,etc. It isn't awful but I don't like it. I spent time with my brother yesterday, he stays over at my place once a week or so. I didn't talk to him about gender.i didn't change how I'm dressing and let myself just act natural around him. I was totally unsure what would come out for me around him. I felt myself being somewhat feminine part of the time, being the little sister. That was both head shaking incongruent but also comforting and familiar. And my masculinity was mostly prevalent and didn't seem to be strange for him and definately wasn't for me. I did wonder with some sadness how our sibling relationship might be alter ed if I became his kid brother. I value my connection with my brother a ton. I don't know how I feel about it changing. Then I wonder, maybe it wouldn't change as much as I think. Maybe he and I could decide that and just be aware of it. Anyone think thats nuts? I think it sounds good but have no idea if it is realistic. My brother is open minded so that he if I tell him I'm a guy,or even just how I'm exploring he will be supportive. I am certain of that, so its more a question of can you chance your gender or its expression so much and reasonably try to maintain the same/similar relationship with your big brother whom you have always been very close to, from when you were born and all the way thru? Do you think its possible for both people to choose that its what they want and have it be so or is that a dream? Thats whats on my mind tonight.

Change your gender, that is.

Quote from: justmeinoz on May 25, 2012, 08:59:31 AM
Post away! 

I have an Intersex friend in New Zealand who is able to hold both identities at the same time, which is supposedly impossible for sane people.  It works for her, and she is possibly the sanest person I have ever met.  Maybe something similar can work for you too. 

Karen.

Supposedly impossible? Where'd you hear that one? Or are you likening it to having schizophrenia or something? It's not like I've ever thought I'm two entirely different people. I've always just been me. It just so happens that I have a lot of characteristics of both genders, am male in mind, have an F on my identification and most people deal with me as female.

It's all about finding your own personal "balance" if you will. I think everyone - even the most macho of men or the most feminine of women have characteristics of both genders if you were to really look hard enough. I've never met anyone who was 100% one or the other when it came down to social characteristics.

One thing that really sidetracked me for a long time was thinking that I HAD TO pick one gender and then go with that. I worried and stressed about that for (literally) years. I think back on how much time I wasted of my life thinking that it was THAT important for me to be some idealized notion I had in my head and to just go with one path. Took me a long time to figure out that just wasn't the case for me and it's not what would lead me to any measure of happiness.

insideontheoutside,
It is good to hear you came to a comfortable place. I know I don't have to be either male or female. But for me I can tell that doing so will bring me more peace than deciding on something else as how I identify. Its great that all these options exist and work for people. I know myself enough to know that id be more comfortable finding out what end of the spectrum I'm more aligned with and being there. I still will honor all of my charecterstics regardless of if they are masculine or feminine.
I expect this understanding of how I will choose to respect all of who I am has been the easy part. And that unraveling all the rest will be harder and take much longer.I'm ok with that.

Quote from: dky on May 26, 2012, 11:31:10 PM
insideontheoutside,
It is good to hear you came to a comfortable place. I know I don't have to be either male or female. But for me I can tell that doing so will bring me more peace than deciding on something else as how I identify. Its great that all these options exist and work for people. I know myself enough to know that id be more comfortable finding out what end of the spectrum I'm more aligned with and being there. I still will honor all of my charecterstics regardless of if they are masculine or feminine.
I expect this understanding of how I will choose to respect all of who I am has been the easy part. And that unraveling all the rest will be harder and take much longer.I'm ok with that.

I see what you're saying. For me the inside is definitely male, the outside is up for grabs along with a lot of other socially "genderized" things and activities I like.

Quote from: dky on May 26, 2012, 03:11:28 AM
Jamie D, sounds like I misread what you meant.i apologize.
Since I've been exploring my masculine identity, I have felt more easy going, mellow, content. I've had almost no anxiety and haven't felt down or depressed. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about what it means. I'm paying attention to it, being curious about it, asking what other factors may be contributing. I'm enjoying the confidence, and I definately don't pass.I'm not trying to at this point. I want to know if I feel different when I try and hopefully do pass at some point. I've ben noticing how it is when I'm called she or woman,etc. It isn't awful but I don't like it. I spent time with my brother yesterday, he stays over at my place once a week or so. I didn't talk to him about gender.i didn't change how I'm dressing and let myself just act natural around him. I was totally unsure what would come out for me around him. I felt myself being somewhat feminine part of the time, being the little sister. That was both head shaking incongruent but also comforting and familiar. And my masculinity was mostly prevalent and didn't seem to be strange for him and definately wasn't for me. I did wonder with some sadness how our sibling relationship might be alter ed if I became his kid brother. I value my connection with my brother a ton. I don't know how I feel about it changing. Then I wonder, maybe it wouldn't change as much as I think. Maybe he and I could decide that and just be aware of it. Anyone think thats nuts? I think it sounds good but have no idea if it is realistic. My brother is open minded so that he if I tell him I'm a guy,or even just how I'm exploring he will be supportive. I am certain of that, so its more a question of can you chance your gender or its expression so much and reasonably try to maintain the same/similar relationship with your big brother whom you have always been very close to, from when you were born and all the way thru? Do you think its possible for both people to choose that its what they want and have it be so or is that a dream? Thats whats on my mind tonight.

No need to apologize.  I freely admit I need to work on my communications ability.  I am very happy the process is helping you.  Just wait until you come to some answers!

I understand how you could *feel* otherwise, but nobody can actually push you be nonbinary anymore than they could make you transgender. It isn't a choice. I didn't wake up one morning and say, "oh how cool, I'll be androgyne." It's probably why you took a look at those forums and thought, "I could never do this". If you aren't you aren't. If you would be you would have looked at this and thought, now this makes sense of everything". (BTW, not to say that some kids don't go experiment with *gender expression*.)

However, it is useful to know what the spectrum looks like (if you believe that's what this is, am open to it being one).


--Jay Jay

Jay jay, thanks for the input. dky