Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Gender as personality type?

Started by DrillQuip, May 04, 2012, 02:55:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ariel

Quote from: agfrommd on June 01, 2012, 08:10:58 AM
Where? I'm on the next plane.

Seriously, I'm quite sure I've never heard of a place like that.

What I can think of offhand (I'm sick, my brain isn't working right) is sadly more historical... I know there have been times that a man's ability to cry was seen as strength.

Quote from: aleon515 on June 01, 2012, 11:26:32 AM
I think you can only say, in a scientific way I mean, that there are tendencies towards something. For instance, males have better upper body strength than females. BUT you have females who have awesome upper body strength that is probably higher than an average male.  But that female (and I am thinking of one) is probably on the 95%+ of the range of upper body muscle strength for females. 3D visual skills are most likely a tendency as well. I have no problem whatsoever with this part, but I do still wonder re: socialization and so forth.

Yeah... honestly with as much as is known about the brain today I suspect we don't actually know as much as we think about what is cultural, what is from other environmental factors, what is genetic... obviously some things like upper body strength are probably genetic but I am thinking more brain-stuff, personality-stuff. But that's part of why I think it's important to let people be as they are, as they feel they are. I think probably by the time we actually understand the brain enough to really know what's what we'll be far enough along as a society to let people be whatever gender they feel they are without problems. I hope so anyway.
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: Ariel on June 01, 2012, 07:25:44 PM
What I can think of offhand (I'm sick, my brain isn't working right) is sadly more historical... I know there have been times that a man's ability to cry was seen as strength.
I hope you are feeling better, and for what it's worth, my brain doesn't always work right even when I'm well!
  •  

Shana A

One significant point in Delusions of Gender that resonated for me. There are more differences between people of (supposed) same sex than between people of (supposed) opposite sex.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Taka

so... the book i mentioned earlier doesn't exist in english, sadly

but the tv programs can be found on youtube with english subtitles

i recommend watching just to get something to think about, main theme being nature vs nurture
but mind that they're made highly controversial on purpose (in order to create a good debate)
it's pretty superficial, whereas the book goes much more in depth
  •  

DrillQuip

Going through the video series Brainwash, and I gotta say this stuff is pretty neat. Thanks for sharing.

I will be finishing up Delusions of Gender, and rewatch the video you posted. They talk about the same experiments so it's interesting to compare the info.
  •  

Taka

you watched all seven episodes?

the series created quite some fuzz over here. it would never have been possible if not for the fact that harald eia already was known as a (often mean) comedian. so him making a series on highly controversial stuff is somewhat less dangerous than if a serious scientist were to do the same. harald has an education in sociology too, but his face as a comedian is so much better known that at the start of the first video you can see that people are unwilling to be interviewed
  •  

DrillQuip

Ahh, I was wondering why people kept laughing and turning him away when he wanted to talk to them. Well, if nothing else I think this series of videos has turned me back onto the idea that gender is innate, at least in some ways. I watched all 7. Couldn't stop watching. Its really hard to argue with the fact that some people born with ambiguous genitalia are absolutely sure of what gender they are no matter how they're raised. I mean, the day that kid says "Im a boy" they should have backed off immediately instead of putting him through all that.

  •  

Taka

well, some people are really convinced that gender is nothing but a social construct. you could see some of those crazy peoples in the series... and as long as people think that way, non-cis and intersexed people will get hurt
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: Taka on June 04, 2012, 01:27:58 AM
well, some people are really convinced that gender is nothing but a social construct. you could see some of those crazy peoples in the series... and as long as people think that way, non-cis and intersexed people will get hurt

I'm not sure what it means when people have said that "gender is nothing but a social construct". Could someone explain?

Does it mean that we identify with a gender because of the way people treat us socially? Or does it mean that your gender is defined solely by how we act socially? Or some other meaning?

Please help.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

Edge

It's another way of saying gender doesn't exist. Its invalidating.
  •  

DrillQuip

Pretty much what Edge said. I would personally say that gender expresses itself in a lot of ways, and society favoring certain forms of that expression is a social construct. But society doesn't create the illusion of gender. Otherwise I dont understand how some people born with one body just know deep down they're a different gender.
  •  

wendy

Well if gender is a personality type and someone modifies their physical self to that of other gender but still presents mostly in birth gender then has person modified their personality type?
  •  

aleon515

Quote from: agfrommd on June 04, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
I'm not sure what it means when people have said that "gender is nothing but a social construct". Could someone explain?

Does it mean that we identify with a gender because of the way people treat us socially? Or does it mean that your gender is defined solely by how we act socially? Or some other meaning?

Please help.

Maybe that the whole concept of gender is created in some sort of social imagination? IF children could all be raised completely in an ungendered way then gender would disappear. Mind you I don't believe this. And I think that it implies something we have no way of proving one way or another.  Another thing is that implies that there is no biological impact (brain structures, hormones, etc.) whatsoever. Huh, how could that be?

--Jay Jay
  •  

wendy

Quote from: DrillQuip on June 04, 2012, 10:25:03 PM
Im sorry, could you say that again? I'm not really sure what you mean.

Are you talking about a situation like where someone is born female, changes their body into a male body, and still acts feminine? Is the question: has that person changed into a male if they still act feminine?

Close.  However if you physically change things that does alter personality type. In your example above if female takes testosterone it will change muscle mass and voice and body and head hair.  I believe these things will influence your personality type too.

.................
Quote from: aleon515 on June 04, 2012, 11:14:06 PM
Maybe that the whole concept of gender is created in some sort of social imagination? IF children could all be raised completely in an ungendered way then gender would disappear. Mind you I don't believe this. And I think that it implies something we have no way of proving one way or another.  Another thing is that implies that there is no biological impact (brain structures, hormones, etc.) whatsoever. Huh, how could that be?

--Jay Jay

I agree that hormones, social interaction, brain structures all influence what we call gender.  If a female were to take testosterone and still present female, it would influence personality type.   Therefore our gender influences our personality type.  If a female lives as a man for one year in our society it will influence "his" personality even if "he" remains what we call feminine.

Hormones influence our personality.
  •  

Sephirah

Quote from: wendy on June 05, 2012, 10:52:51 AM
Close.  However if you physically change things that does alter personality type. In your example above if female takes testosterone it will change muscle mass and voice and body and head hair.  I believe these things will influence your personality type too.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning there. Wouldn't the person's personality be such that it already exhibits post-change attributes? Otherwise why the need to physically change anything in the first place if not to allow for an environment better able to express that which is already there? It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that one would change the mind to match the body rather than the other way around.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •  

AbraCadabra

Quote from: Sephirah on June 05, 2012, 11:31:19 AM
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning there. Wouldn't the person's personality be such that it already exhibits post-change attributes? Otherwise why the need to physically change anything in the first place if not to allow for an environment better able to express that which is already there? It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that one would change the mind to match the body rather than the other way around.

THIS!

Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •  

foosnark

A lot of things to do with gender *are* social constructs.  Maybe there's a core that is not, and the rest is a web of expectations and associations that gets stuck to it.

But certainly, any individual trait (such as aggressiveness, or technical skill, or nurturing, or particular colors or kinds of clothing or manners of speaking) that people associate with gender, is only a vague statistical tendency and/or a cultural rule, and you can find exceptions and contradictions in other societies or in history.

I do not deny that gender (or in some cases, a lack thereof) is something we feel strongly at the core of our being.  Nor do I deny that for some, there is an overwhelming feeling (or at least a vague feeling in my case) that their gender is not what society tells them it is.

But I believe it forms as we are very young and learning about the world through observing and imitating other people.  Without society, I honestly don't think it makes sense to say gender exists.

You can't explain gender with hormones alone, either.  I have a very testosterone-ish body.  Male pattern baldness visible since age 18, lots of body hair, etc.  But my personality isn't aggressive and "manly" and my identity is androgyne leaning toward feminine and simultaneously leaning toward agendered.  My parents didn't raise me that way and society didn't lead me to it either, yet here I am.

Gender is an emergent property, an epiphenomenon.  It comes from a synergy of things biological and psychological, and doesn't exist on its own without them.  But what emerges from the input may be a surprise.
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: foosnark on June 05, 2012, 12:05:25 PM

But certainly, any individual trait (such as aggressiveness, or technical skill, or nurturing, or particular colors or kinds of clothing or manners of speaking) that people associate with gender, is only a vague statistical tendency and/or a cultural rule, and you can find exceptions and contradictions in other societies or in history.


True.

But I find the more I explore my own gender issues, the less I mind when people associate certain traits with certain genders. I don't mind if women (in general) are seen to have a gentler approach to life or if men (in general) are seen to give less importance to other people's feeling.

What does bother me and get me quite steamed is when the deviation from these associations is looked on negatively. I.e. I don't mind if someone calls my approach to something girly. I am girly some of the time. But don't you dare imply that that's something bad. Likewise, if a woman is assertive, tough, etc., and you want to say that's unfeminine, okay. But don't imply that there's something wrong with that, or that being unfeminine in various ways makes someone less of a woman.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

wendy

Quote from: agfrommd on June 05, 2012, 12:59:00 PM
I don't mind if someone calls my approach to something girly. I am girly some of the time. But don't you dare imply that that's something bad. Likewise, if a woman is assertive, tough, etc., and you want to say that's unfeminine, okay. But don't imply that there's something wrong with that, or that being unfeminine in various ways makes someone less of a woman.

Very nice.
.......................

Quote from: Sephirah on June 05, 2012, 11:31:19 AM
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning there. Wouldn't the person's personality be such that it already exhibits post-change attributes? Otherwise why the need to physically change anything in the first place if not to allow for an environment better able to express that which is already there? It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that one would change the mind to match the body rather than the other way around.

Seph brains are dynamic and not static.  We cut grooves in our mind that can be destructive or enlightening.  We do have ability to change how we view things and change our brain.  We are hardwired for what we perceive as "gender" but software can change.   If we want to be part of society then we have to follow "society's" rules.  Personality can change (modify software) by teaching ourselves.  Changing hormones has felt right but it has also modified my brain which modifies my personality.  Also people treat you different depending on your gender which influences your personality.  My birth gender did influence my personality.  Changing my gender also influences my personality.  Hardwiring stays same but software can be modified.
  •  

Sephirah

Quote from: wendy on June 05, 2012, 02:23:47 PM
If we want to be part of society then we have to follow "society's" rules.

Umm... why? Society is a collection of individuals. It changes constantly. The "rules" change dependant on where you are, when you are, what people think they know, what they don't know... if no one ever broke the "rules" and did anything different, we'd still all be swinging through the trees in Africa, picking flies off each others' butts. Maybe sometimes, society has to follow "our" rules in order to get anywhere.

Quote from: wendy on June 05, 2012, 02:23:47 PM
Also people treat you different depending on your gender which influences your personality.

Not sure I'd agree with that, at least from a personal viewpoint. Years of being treated like a man, or having male stereotypes applied to me has made me neither act more like, think more like, feel more like, or want to be more like one. And, to be honest, the reverse also holds true. I guess that's just something to do with my own mind, and probably everyone is different, and have different levels of integration of, and association with their personality as it relates to the world around it, be that social or biological. :)

Or maybe I just see personality as something different to most folks. Which wouldn't surprise me, I can be weird that way. I see the brain and the mind as two different things. Probably we're just using the same word to describe two different things. In which case, it's apples and oranges... so forget everything I just said.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •