Greetings everyone!

After 2 months of researching science and talking with people here and on other forums, looking at various websites, watching documentaries and spending time in constant prayer I still have an issue that's tugging at my heart.

Some of you know that off and on I have been dealing with my identity, spending much time in suppression, back and forth about how I feel about
issues, taking tests finally to see if I am intersexed in some way just to see if it would explain it all. I have come to a place mentally and spiritually where I can feel comfortable about being either intersexed and/or transgender. I have seen the science to support all of this. I have come to know that the bible does not speak out about being either of these things. For me personally I can be at peace with that.

Still though when I try to wrap my head around the idea of orientation, while I hear a lot of people saying they are also "born that way" and a few have said "God does not judge" I still can't get past this small still voice inside my head and heart that says this is still wrong.

There is not as much science about your orientation vs being intersexed or transgender. The fact that are 6 questionable verses in the bible about an orientation leaves me to pause and consider. I have gone to many websites and listened to many sermons, including wouldjesusdiscriminate.org

It takes a few times to hear these audio sermons and the written ones and have it make sense. Even after hearing all the evidence, why do I still feel guilty about entertaining that idea? Why do I still feel like I would be separated from God and loose my salvation if I accept that final part?

The fact that some people say hormones can change orientation, the fact that some have said they were heterosexual and then decided they were homosexual, that some choose to be, that some experiment and then go back.

Sorry there is still not a clear answer for me here. Eternity is an awful long time to be separated from God. Please do not respond in this thread and tell me it does not matter and that I should just do what I feel is good, because things that I know for sure are sins can also "feel" good

This is the last area of humanity I need to understand.

I think the last place anyone should be looking for help and guidance related to matters of sexuality are religious texts written centuries ago. It will leave you feeling conflicted, hurt and confused, and you will not find a satisfactory resolution. I could say a lot more on this, but I fear I would be breaking forum rules.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. I don't choose to be sexually attracted to women, I just am. I don't choose to dislike the taste of vodka, I just do. People can experiment with their sexuality and try things they might not normally do, but that in itself is not 'becoming homosexual'. Homosexuality is not 'wrong' in any sense. The guilt you are feeling is a consequence of things which were societal norms 2000 years ago but which no longer apply because the world is now a very different place and in many respects society has moved on. I can't say more without insulting your beliefs so I'll have to leave it there.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 09, 2012, 07:52:11 AM
Greetings everyone!

1) there is not as much science about your orientation vs being intersexed or transgender. The fact that are 6 questionable verses in the bible about an orientation leaves me to pause and consider.

2) The fact that some people say hormones can change orientation, the fact that some have said they were heterosexual and then decided they were homosexual, that some choose to be, that some experiment and then go back.

I will not address the religion part of your post as I am not qualified and my response would be taken as offensive. So I will live that part to the resident specialists in bible interpretation.

1) As far as the scientific part of your post you are totally wrong my dear S2S. Research on the biology of sexual orientation is at least 10 years ahead of the research on the biology of GID. Almost all the techniques that have been used to discover the biological causes of GID were pioneered and/or first employed in sexual orientation research. Please follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic_nucleus to learn a sort of layman summary on the matter at hand.

2) I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.To make a long story short, some people (TG/TS) may have had an intrauterine mishap that renders their brain "sexual orientation" center susceptible to an hormonal effect, and thus when exposed to estradiol (MTF) or testosterone (FTM) their sexual orientation changes. This is purely a biological effect and NOT a voluntary choice.

The choices are made when you act on desire. For example, I know this homosexual catholic priest that live all his life never acting on his sexual desires, but he die as an homosexual as his desires to have sex with a man never left him, that is until he died.

So if there is a sin on been homosexual or transgender, and since we cannot change them, then it follows we die as we were born, unless of course the hormones change your brain. You can chose not express your ->-bleeped-<- or homosexuality but that does not change you at all, it just condemns to living a LIE, lying to yourself and to the rest of humanity. IMOHO you are refusing to be the way your creator made you.

Ok i can see why a person can be in suppression over being homosexual and even have children and kids and then later come out of suppression, this I can see, what I cannot see though is why some folks have just woke up one day and "decided" they were homosexual. I need to explain why this actress Cynthia Nixon said this:

Quote"Why can't it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we're just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don't think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn't realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I've been out with."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/23/cynthia-nixon-wit-being-gay_n_1223889.html


This is just one example, I already remember reading about a womens basketball player saying things along the same train of thought. I cannot remember her name but she had stated she also "chose".  This confusion over choice does not help.

Quotepeky: I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.To make a long story short, some people (TG/TS) may have had an intrauterine mishap that renders their brain "sexual orientation" center susceptible to an hormonal effect, and thus when exposed to estradiol (MTF) or testosterone (FTM) their sexual orientation changes. This is purely a biological effect and NOT a voluntary choice.

I am not trying to offend you and read above, cynthia-nixon says its offensive to her that it cannot be a choice.

QuoteCynthia Nixon "I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line 'I've been straight and I've been gay, and gay is better.' And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me. A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it's a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn't matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not."

Her viewpoint makes my mind boggle, as I know she is not the only one who as said this before, If her theroy is true, and if it is a choice, then I have nothing to defend myself with.

I don't know what area of christian back ground you have but those I came out of see all of us as the same. I try to expain but they turned a deaf ear to my words so to that I say I did not want to be judge by them but I knew i was going to be. I am a homosexual to them just wanting to change my sex to feel okay with being with men. as far as being bisexual I may not have ever been confused about my own sexuality if they did not have me thinking I only wanted to change genders to be with men. I am married to a woman and as I pass in the future if we choose to be together we will be seen as lesbians. I understand all three of these points I am seen as gay every where I go yet live with my wife who does not want to be seen as a lesbian. My cuosin is gay and he is a christian he does not practice homosexuality but the gay never went away for him. He feels that being with a woman would be wrong only because he could not love her truthfully so he is alone. This is how I see it, I am LBGT. I understand all these. I'm going to show these people the same that I wish for myself not to be judged. God grace goes past what is seen or understood to be right or wrong.

Jesus was judged, condemned, crucified for being himself that is all he is expacting of me to do even if I am condemned for it. I love you sister. Don't leave off "mercy and truth." I too have done all the searching through the bible and science.

Quote from: JJ on June 09, 2012, 08:20:35 AM
I think the last place anyone should be looking for help and guidance related to matters of sexuality are religious texts written centuries ago. It will leave you feeling conflicted, hurt and confused, and you will not find a satisfactory resolution. I could say a lot more on this, but I fear I would be breaking forum rules.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. I don't choose to be sexually attracted to women, I just am. I don't choose to dislike the taste of vodka, I just do. People can experiment with their sexuality and try things they might not normally do, but that in itself is not 'becoming homosexual'. Homosexuality is not 'wrong' in any sense. The guilt you are feeling is a consequence of things which were societal norms 2000 years ago but which no longer apply because the world is now a very different place and in many respects society has moved on. I can't say more without insulting your beliefs so I'll have to leave it there.

Very well put JJ.

Re: identity, and how it's scientifically supported. I'm trans. I'm queer. I'm part of a multiple system, which means there's more than one person in my body-this is pathologized as multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity disorder, even though it's not actually a mental illness. I'm an otherkin, which means that I don't identify as human. I'm autistic. I was born all of these things. Nobody knows for sure what causes any of them, but they're all inborn situations. They're all pretty damn real, and they're not stuff I feel like I need to justify to anybody. (Hell, I'm a queer/trans liberationist anarchist.)

QuoteStealthy : I'm an otherkin, which means that I don't identify as human. I'

  Oh that's totally normal to me, I am actually half alien, it just does not show up on any tests we have here on earth. Of course I made the mistake of telling a doctor this along with other things when I was 11 years old


I removed a quotation referring to a deleted comment, and I deleted the response to that quotation.

i dont know , im not a christian nor do i believe in any of the christian beliefs heaven hell etc, but even if they were true id rather go to hell if it meant i had to pretend to be something im not in order to go to heaven

I understand this a support site, but I draw the line at veiled homophobia.

Okay, enough with the in-fighting.

Quote from: Terms of Service
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

•Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
•Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

...

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Thread locked.

In case anyone is wondering why Sephirah invoked Rule #10, I edited out some offensive comments on this thread. And while I'm here, I might as well put in my two cents' worth.

Quote from: peky on June 09, 2012, 08:34:51 AM
2) I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.

I have met people who proudly claim that they have chosen their orientation. And I've had more than one conversation with such people about how offended and angry they are when someone else tells them that they can't have made such a choice. Maybe they're just deluding themselves, or maybe there IS an element of choice for some people. Me, I was born this way. I tried to choose to be bi, and I failed. Other people? I'm not so sure, and I don't think that anyone on the planet is qualified to state that no one else has any choice.

Quote from: peky on June 09, 2012, 08:34:51 AMYou can chose not express your ->-bleeped-<- or homosexuality but that does not change you at all, it just condemns to living a LIE, lying to yourself and to the rest of humanity. IMOHO you are refusing to be the way your creator made you.

Thank you for phrasing this as an opinion. I see so many LGBT people struggling with different views of how they should be and how they think God wants them to be. I feel that it IS a matter of one's own opinion/belief. Only the person in question can decide what is right.

I have unlocked this thread since it had a 24 hour cooldown. Keep posts on this thread to issues. Don't get personal. Try not to get upset at something someone else posts. If you feel a post crosses the line again feel free to report the messages in question.

Who cares if it's a choice or not to be gay. That misses the point that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and is widely visible amongst nonhuman animals. And even if it wasn't human animals do lots of things non-human animals don't. Let us just let others love who they wish as long as it's concentual.

I guess my main fear is that, why do I still feel guilty about entertaining that idea? Why do I still feel like I would be separated from God and loose my salvation if I accept that final part?

because that is what you were taught.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 11, 2012, 12:19:52 AM
because that is what you were taught.

Ok if thats all it is, then does anyone have suggestions on how to get rid of the guilt?

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 12:27:13 AM
Ok if thats all it is, then do have any suggestions on how to get rid of the guilt?

Free yourself from your faith.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
Free yourself from your faith.

Humans have a huge propensity for faith. Humans can, also,channel faith. Humans choose where their faith goes. Humans can't quit faith (never seen it happen) but we can decide where to direct it.

Retrain yourself. Many things taught to us as a child are in error, either due to out right lying, the teacher being ignorant, or a change in interpretation. Review what it is you 'know' from the bible and anything else that increases your guilt. Search for true meaning or interpretation, or updated information.