Feel what you want.... but what you don't understand is the conflict with your soul may be the real God telling you what's right isn't necessarily what was taught to you by other people...

Quote from: LordKAT on June 11, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
Retrain yourself. Many things taught to us as a child are in error, either due to out right lying, the teacher being ignorant, or a change in interpretation. Review what it is you 'know' from the bible and anything else that increases your guilt. Search for true meaning or interpretation, or updated information.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
Free yourself from your faith.

Um yeah, telling someone that their religious views are wrong and that they should change them doesn't really sit right with me.......

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 11, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Um yeah, telling someone that their religious views are wrong and that they should change them doesn't really sit right with me.......

The OP asked for a way out of feeling guilty. I made no statement on the rightness or wrongness of their faith. I simply said that if one adult in authority abused that authority by telling the OP as a child that they would be sinful for being non-hetronormative, then the OP needs to wake up and realize that religious leaders have no right to make statements on morality. All the BS over original sin, especially filling children's heads with visions of hell and telling them that they should feel guilt over it, is sick, more so given the way religious leaders have acted in the past towards children.

There is nothing holy about churches and the people who run them. If one has faith that's a personal matter but I do not accept that a select few men get to preach from two thousand year old stories to others how to live their lives and make them feel guilty. That is wrong.

well what you don't know though niamh is I have been listening to open and affirming sermons from the mcc church which is primarily a lgbt congregation, and also the ucc which is a mix. I have actually gotten some really good explanations out of the sermons, that explain translations and context and meaning of certain scriptures, i found a site that speaks on all the clobber versuses. I have listened to each sermon twice now.

I am just trying to distinguish between my inner voice and between the programming I have gotten vs what I am hearing now, and being right with God.

Asking me to give up my faith does not solve anything for me. Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation, I want to be able to come to a place that Mel White has come to, and he went through 30 years of hell and therapy. He used to ghost-write for people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and then came out.

Quote**"After almost 3 decades of counseling and "anti-gay" therapy including prayer, fasting, exorcism, and electric shock, Mel White was able to reconcile his Christian theology and his sexual orientation. At his installation, Mel proclaimed his own, heart-felt statement of faith: "I am gay. I am proud. And God loves me without reservation." **

  I am taking small baby steps at this point in my life to be happy.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:25:22 AM
Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation,

Colossion 1:20 "And, having made PEACE through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

He made the path of reconciliation for you. your guilt is hanging on the cross with him. I battled false guilt for years about this. you are not alone in this many have gone through it.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 01:32:32 AM
The OP asked for a way out of feeling guilty. I made no statement on the rightness or wrongness of their faith. I simply said that if one adult in authority abused that authority by telling the OP as a child that they would be sinful for being non-hetronormative, then the OP needs to wake up and realize that religious leaders have no right to make statements on morality. All the BS over original sin, especially filling children's heads with visions of hell and telling them that they should feel guilt over it, is sick, more so given the way religious leaders have acted in the past towards children.

There is nothing holy about churches and the people who run them. If one has faith that's a personal matter but I do not accept that a select few men get to preach from two thousand year old stories to others how to live their lives and make them feel guilty. That is wrong.

Actually, niamh, it is their "right" and is what clerics do in most every world religion.  They teach and explain that faith's tenets, whatever they might be.

It is up to the congregant to process the information and come to personal conclusions.

I have found that anti-religious bigotry is just as intolerant and ugly as anti-glbt bigotry.

I think this issue belongs over in the "Spirituality" section. per TOS Rule 16.

Yes, thanks Jamie for moving it, that's where it has steered to now. Yes Religious leaders do have a right.

QuoteThe First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:25:22 AM
I am just trying to distinguish between my inner voice and between the programming I have gotten vs what I am hearing now, and being right with God.

Asking me to give up my faith does not solve anything for me. Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation, I want to be able to come to a place that Mel White has come to, and he went through 30 years of hell and therapy. He used to ghost-write for people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and then came out.

  I am taking small baby steps at this point in my life to be happy.

Well good luck with that. As an atheist and secularist I was giving you my view from my side but if you have already chosen what to do (and are happy with an GLBT church) I see little point in my continuing to explain myself. If the views of non-religious people are seen as anti-religious then I guess that is where I disagree but will now wish you luck with finding whatever it is you are seeking.

QuoteWell good luck with that. As an atheist and secularist I was giving you my view from my side

Ok, well, what then? Are you suggesting it doesn't matter? I can see that if I was an atheist then it would mean in a broad sense, I could reject the belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, I could hold the position that there are no deities period. If I take that stance i can then see your point, as then it would only matter how I feel about it. So then yes, I could be free to do what I wanted.  In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and again I can see that as also being freeing.

But I am not an atheist or a secularist, nor can I ever come to the idea of that, I have had too many things happen good and bad and seen many wondrous things good and bad, the beauty of creation itself has a master plan, when I create a painting its not random, I have a picture in my mind and I paint it. If i made random paint strokes on the canvas it would look interesting for sure but I would not be allowing myself to use all of my imagination. i am not controlled by any one religion, I am not even controlled by God, but I have to make a decision that will keep me safe from the Evil One and lead me into the Arms of Love.

Life is complicated as it is. Being transgendered makes life x times more complicated. I can only imagine having said belief system complicating matters x times further. You are a very brave individual indeed. I myself have seen things you wouldn't believe... But I don't attribute them to a deity. I refer to Occam's razor. I'm 'spiritual' and live by 'ethical' rules, but I'm also an atheist/agnostic. I wouldn't get so hung up on finding labels and categories for everything and everyone. To define is to limit. Life is a spectrum, life is more fluid than that. Life is as complicated as you want to make it. Sorry. 

Gender identity is to sexual orientation as cheese is to chalk.

They have nothing to do with each other other than the internal affirmation and acceptance.  It is similar to the five stages of grief:

1) Denial.
2) Anger.
3) Bargaining.
4) Depression.
5) Acceptance.

Part of that, regardless of your religious affiliation, is a spiritual searching for answers.  That search, for some, goes on forever.  And for some, the answers they find is sufficient.  We are a very spiritual people, by and large.

You may find your search eased by addressing each of these separately.  Gender identity is who you see yourself to be.  Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to.

And as we, like butterflies, enter chrysalis, we become fluid and pliable, as we change from caterpillar to butterfly.  Many things change.  And that is all right.  We cannot change who we are, nor we cannot change who we become.

It is not a path that others can walk.  It is not a gift that others can carry.  But it is a blessing in all of it's wonderful forms.

-Sandy

Quote from: Laura91 on June 11, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
You may see it as intolerant and ugly but look at it from the perspective of a person that chooses to distance themselves from religion. I don't seek it out and yet I have to deal with people coming around and shoving it in my face regardless of how I feel about it. You can't expect people to be laid back about someone shoving their views in their face when they had no desire to hear it in the first place.

This is what a lot of religious people do and any harshness they get from people is brought on themselves.

To me, it doesn't matter which direction it flows, bigotry is bigotry.  It is the "intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

Tolerance is the capacity to recognize and respect the beliefs of others, without the need to embrace those beliefs yourself.  When I think of tolerance, Mahatma Ganghi comes to mind.  I wonder how he might have responded to these issues?

I have been reading the OP responses to the many suggestions for a solution, and by the tone of his responses I am afraid OP would not be able to find any response acceptable, may be there is no solution for the OP guiltness -not within the OP faith- other than to learn to live with it.

Quote from: Laura91 on June 11, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
While I agree with you that bigotry is wrong, what I mentioned isn't a form of bigotry. It is a reaction to someone having their personal space invaded. That is exactly what people do when they throw their religion at you like this. I recognize that people have the right to worship as they choose. What I don't like is someone shoving their views in my face and when I say "I'm not interested" instead of saying something like "get the hell away from me, you freak!" they still spazz out and tell me how I am going to hell even though I am doing all I can to be nice to them about this.

There is the difference.

You are quite right.   When I get a knock on my front door, and I find missionaries on my doorstep, I thank them for coming by, but tell them I have my own beliefs and wish them a good day.  Then I close the door.  It is my space.

It would be an entirely different situation if I voluntarily went to a church or synagogue, and began to harangue the worshipers.

I was speaking more to the sometimes harsh criticism being dealt in this thread.

And you are nice!

Quote from: peky on June 11, 2012, 01:31:46 PM
I have been reading the OP responses to the many suggestions for a solution, and by the tone of his responses I am afraid OP would not be able to find any response acceptable, may be there is no solution for the OP guiltness -not within the OP faith- other than to learn to live with it.

The context of the thread is simply this, "how does the OP reconcile their feelings about their gender and sexuality, within the framework of their religious beliefs?"

It is entirely fair to say, "change the framework."  It is not fair to denigrate any and all religious beliefs.

ShawnToShawn is clearly working on reconciliation.  It takes time.  For StS, this represents a significant and difficult paradigm shift.

QuoteFor StS, this represents a significant and difficult paradigm shift.

Yes That is very much my problem indeed. Shifting your whole essence of reality and existence reminds me of something I heard in a movie.



One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor

Talk with a therapist about your feelings. Preferably, someone who will NOT tell you the status of their beliefs as that will taint how they treat you. This is what cognitive behavior therapy is all about, basically reprogramming yourself to get rid of maladaive thoughts.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:52:38 PM

Completely off topic.  But I've seen this picture used before and for an old hippie, like myself, I am left with the impression that he is actually taking a toke...

*deep toke* "'ya know, dude, One does not simply WALK into Mordor..."
*exhale*
"Pass the ginger snaps and doritos, dude..."

[/thread hijack off/]