I suppose this might not be a good thing to talk about, but I felt like addressing it, somehow. I've seen countless pictures of naked MTF girls, non-op, on websites, in very graphic situations. You know what I'm talking about. I've got nothing against that. What I find slightly contradictory is that this is the very same thing they might, later in life, complain about. Like, most people see transsexuals as nothing but sex craving individuals, and make us an object to 'dream' with very much like the women that make the covers of so and so magazine. While GGs might have it easier, if only as there are a whole lot of them in this world, we just get treated much poorly and not just because the lack of visibility, but also because, amongst many things, stuff like porn. I've seen this mentioned in other posts here but didn't really see a thread about it specifically.

It's not like I find it morally wrong, but it's one of the things that makes me think about how many young transsexuals just take for granted what many have fought, and even died for. How many Renee Richards (example) do we need to overcome society's vision of transsexuals?

E.


PS: Also, mods please, feel free to move this to another place if it's required.

I just hate to think that we can be someone else's "fetish" it really creeps me out

but I know what you are talking about, its like a lot of the young mtf girls are really pushing the limit on bad taste and exploiting themselves...some even do it to make a tidy living

Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.

You are so right about that.

Thankfully, at least for my kids, they knew my trans friends as they were growing up, giving them a positive model to look up to and understand. That has made them better people as they grow older and I am proud of them for that.

A lot of people young and old mock what they dont understand, dont know if that is an inherent American trait or not really

Lucky, lucky kids, Michelle. So glad about that.

Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.

This post needs repeating.

Pornography is a VERY seedy business, all of the sex trades are. You (original poster not the poster I quoted) think that the majority of women, trans or not, who are in pornography and other sex trades really enjoy being there? I'm sure there's a few, but I highly doubt it's the majority.

Choice is a very funny thing. Something can look very much like a choice from a distance until you take a look close up and see just how hopeless a choice it is.

Don't judge the women for what they do, blame the pornography industry, blame the men who consume the bulk of the pornography industry. They are the ones to blame here.

Quote from: Michelle G on June 22, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
A lot of people young and old mock what they dont understand, dont know if that is an inherent American trait or not really

Of course it's not, it's a human trait.

I find the pornography industry and the sex trade disgusting, but I won't for a second blame the women who participate in it. There's far too many factors involved like poverty, drug abuse, histories of sexual violence, etc, to judge that group.

Blame the people who create the market. Blame the consumers of pornography (this only counts for pornography depicting actual persons, written pornography I don't count in the same way).

I've known far too many former and current prostitutes to be so naive as to call it a true choice.

Disclaimer: Don't take it from my post that I hate men, because I know that might be how it may come across. Most of my relationships have been with men and I've known some great men in my life, but the facts are what they are, and those facts are that the sex trade is 99% for the consumption of men, and this includes the male prostitutes also, much like men make up the vast majority of rapists, of males and females alike.

Also something else I'll say, MTF's are women, we shouldn't be making a distinction.

I've known far too many who have gone this route. It only ended in frustration or death for them. Have you ever wondered why there is so much male exposure in heterosexual porn? I think that there is something about men that like "it"... if you know what I mean. I wouldn't be surprised if many hetero's get their rocks of TG porn. It's a pet peeve of mine too, but there isn't much I can do except steer potential victims away through my writing.

Cindi

I recall it being brought up before too that some do it as a needs to survive. They've had problems with keeping down a steady job, primarily because they're transwomen. They found it easier to just sell themselves.

I don't really agree with that route, but I can understand it. Luckily though, I feel that isn't such a serious issue as of much any more. It seems more companies are beginning to update their EO policies to benefit trans.

Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.

The very unfortunate fact of life for many young TG women. For various reasons your coming out eventually leads to a deal with the devil. That deal eventually leads to a lot of internal defense mechanisms to rationalize or justify what you are doing. I doubt any thought of how my individual action or decision is going to change how crappy the rest of the world is treating me and other TGs never enters their minds. I sure don't think way about 99.99% of the decisions I make every day, including the ones if I think about it will or can affect many others.

My wife had the offer a few times early on in NYC. The money sure beats waiting on tables and is very tempting. Fortunately she got quickly talked out of it each time by someone who knew the seedy side of it. If anything they said, she should become a madam they said! lol She also never got into a desperate situation. She did wait to make her transition and move to the city until after she had worked and saved up a good portion of her surgery money. She always had a piggy bank to raid when things got bad.

The very unfortunate fact for the rest of us, the exploitation does put us in a bad light. Certainly worse off then most women. Yet cis women are also victims of the sex industry as well as mens perception of them. Just think of all the men out there that think most women are sex crazed sluts that must be kept under control for "religious" reasons. And then there are the others. Religion is a great way to justify doing a lot of things in society. After all, you don't want to get the Big Guy angry. Bad things happen then. Since most guys know they will do something bad if the opportunity presents itself, the only way to stop themselves is to keep women suppressed.

Unless we're talking about sex trafficking, it's a women's own decision to be part of these industries. All that is needed to have women flock to them like dogs is their existence, the only way we can get rid of it is to ban this type of exploitation. We can blame these women for being stupid enough to make the decisions in the first place, just look at webcam modelling, most are from first world countries and the majority of them seem enjoy it. The real problem is social conditioning, bad parenting, and the general acceptance of promiscious behaviour combined with the fact that women are taught, thought social circles and experience, that they can exploit their beauty whenever they feel like it whether it be through finding a rich partner, fashion modelling or prostitution. A lot of them also value their beauty over other traits, and want it to be seen by others, hence the weird sexual poses they do on facebook etc... it's not just about porn, women are sexualized by the media but they also sexualize themselves (sometimes for an ego boost). Same story applies to MTFs except for them it's a newly aquired ability, thus the extremity may be higher.

Also, you can't blame male consumers because it's natural for them to be attracted to this type of stuff, and it IS thrown in our faces in one form or another - becomes an addiction.

Syncronicity us a wonderful thing. My dearly beloved and me were discussing me coming out to people and how we are on the whole not bothered who knows except one person. The reason being that this person objectifies FTM transexuals as a fetish object and we both find this extremely distasteful.

As a kicker the person concerned is female so I'm not sure there's a straight split by gender.

Love,

Rosie.

Quote from: 8888 on June 23, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
Unless we're talking about sex trafficking, it's a women's own decision to be part of these industries. All that is needed to have women flock to them like dogs is their existence, the only way we can get rid of it is to ban this type of exploitation. We can blame these women for being stupid enough to make the decisions in the first place, just look at webcam modelling, most are from first world countries and the majority of them seem enjoy it. The real problem is social conditioning, bad parenting, and the general acceptance of promiscious behaviour combined with the fact that women are taught, thought social circles and experience, that they can exploit their beauty whenever they feel like it whether it be through finding a rich partner, fashion modelling or prostitution. A lot of them also value their beauty over other traits, and want it to be seen by others, hence the weird sexual poses they do on facebook etc... it's not just about porn, women are sexualized by the media but they also sexualize themselves (sometimes for an ego boost). Same story applies to MTFs except for them it's a newly aquired ability, thus the extremity may be higher.

Also, you can't blame male consumers because it's natural for them to be attracted to this type of stuff, and it IS thrown in our faces in one form or another - becomes an addiction.

Wow, you really have the whole small minded thing going on for you...

Personally, I find your views abhorrent and disgusting and unbelievably small minded.

I absolutely can blame male consumers because there's no reason they can't fulfill their sexual desires without exploiting others. Your claim is like saying we can't blame rapists because they can't help themselves, it's utterly disgusting.

"Seem to enjoy it", they have to act like they enjoy it because that's what the consumers want.

And finally, banning it is something I would be very very weary about. Prohibition is the go-to simple answer for complex sociological problems, and it almost always just makes the problem worse. Child pornography is illegal and now there are whole underground networks of men abusing their children for others. I suspect better regulation combined with MUCH greater social support would be a much better approach to the problem.

But regardless, you should be glad you've never been desperate enough to understand why people end up doing the things they do.

Your lack of compassion and your naivety though is exactly a part of the problem.

It's scary... And it's really hard for me to understand and accept it as part of the human condition.

It's it the girl's fault for turning to sexual practices for money? I kind of want to say it is, as much as it is stealing to make a living. It's cold to say that given how many women (regardless of past) are killed becasue of it... but I can't help but feel that way. However it is not their fault for making such a seedy and horrible environment, or even making the demand. It's not their fault that the route exist. Much like it's not really a drug addict's fault that a drug pusher pushes drugs.

It does come down to objectification of all women, and it's simply a practice that is deeply rooted in our past where women had no real rights. Where they were legally objects. 

Is it natural for men to allow and partake in this practice? I don't think it is... I think that implies men are dumb animals incapable of functioning at a level where they realize something is morally wrong. And honestly, most men are capable of seeing something is morally wrong with paying women for sexual gratification, and a large portion of men never involve themselves with the porn business in large extent (or much at all). At least I want to believe that is the case. Assume the best of life even when the worst of problems exist.

Maybe one day we just won't need it... No woman would need to sell themselves, no man would need to pay for it... and the world would probably be better off. x.x probably never happen I guess.

The reality is daunting and makes sense.  At the same time the world has changed.  Someone can really make a fortune if they "go viral" online.  So it's not just in this community.  Lots of people are making fools out of themselves online.  Look at Courtney Stodden.   So sad.

Quote from: SourCandy on June 23, 2012, 09:16:11 PM
It's scary... And it's really hard for me to understand and accept it as part of the human condition.

It's it the girl's fault for turning to sexual practices for money? I kind of want to say it is, as much as it is stealing to make a living. It's cold to say that given how many women (regardless of past) are killed becasue of it... but I can't help but feel that way. However it is not their fault for making such a seedy and horrible environment, or even making the demand. It's not their fault that the route exist. Much like it's not really a drug addict's fault that a drug pusher pushes drugs.

It does come down to objectification of all women, and it's simply a practice that is deeply rooted in our past where women had no real rights. Where they were legally objects. 

Is it natural for men to allow and partake in this practice? I don't think it is... I think that implies men are dumb animals incapable of functioning at a level where they realize something is morally wrong. And honestly, most men are capable of seeing something is morally wrong with paying women for sexual gratification, and a large portion of men never involve themselves with the porn business in large extent (or much at all). At least I want to believe that is the case. Assume the best of life even when the worst of problems exist.

Maybe one day we just won't need it... No woman would need to sell themselves, no man would need to pay for it... and the world would probably be better off. x.x probably never happen I guess.

Part of the problem is these are extremely complex problems. People will do what they feel they have to to survive. Sell themselves, steal from others, when you get desperate enough, suddenly morality becomes a luxury you can no longer afford.

I don't blame the people in desperate need, whatever got them to that point to begin with (and usually but not always it's hard to assign direct fault to them). People tend to be close minded and apply their life to others not seeing how varied and complex the world is that results in the circumstances people wind up in. What we need is more compassion and less judgement. Lets forget for a minute the horrible things people do for survival and lets just focus on what we can do to stop it. To improve the quality of life for everyone.

The problem there of course is that in order to support people in desperate need, we need social support. If it's by charities they have little funding and if it's by government social systems it's by tax's that get them kicked out of office. In either case it's the same reason, the people with the wealth to contribute to support people in need don't want to loose some of their quality of life, especially when it's so easy to come up with an us vs them, black and white, criminals and good guys view of the world.

It's all too easy for the wealthy few, the privileged, to want to believe that they have the things they do because they deserve them, because they earned it, rather than simply being lucky. This way they can see the world as fair and that they deserve their wealth and luxury. And as a consequence the unfortunate deserve it also.

I don't believe in socialism, but I don't believe in capitalism either. We need rational evidence based approaches to problems. And for people to just show some human compassion and desire for empathy.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 09:31:18 PM
Part of the problem is these are extremely complex problems. People will do what they feel they have to to survive. Sell themselves, steal from others, when you get desperate enough, suddenly morality becomes a luxury you can no longer afford.

I don't blame the people in desperate need, whatever got them to that point to begin with (and usually but not always it's hard to assign direct fault to them). People tend to be close minded and apply their life to others not seeing how varied and complex the world is that results in the circumstances people wind up in. What we need is more compassion and less judgement. Lets forget for a minute the horrible things people do for survival and lets just focus on what we can do to stop it. To improve the quality of life for everyone.

The problem there of course is that in order to support people in desperate need, we need social support. If it's by charities they have little funding and if it's by government social systems it's by tax's that get them kicked out of office. In either case it's the same reason, the people with the wealth to contribute to support people in need don't want to loose some of their quality of life, especially when it's so easy to come up with an us vs them, black and white, criminals and good guys view of the world.

It's all too easy for the wealthy few, the privileged, to want to believe that they have the things they do because they deserve them, because they earned it, rather than simply being lucky. This way they can see the world as fair and that they deserve their wealth and luxury. And as a consequence the unfortunate deserve it also.

I don't believe in socialism, but I don't believe in capitalism either. We need rational evidence based approaches to problems. And for people to just show some human compassion and desire for empathy.

I agree, and I know... Like I get that at some point people have to do what they have to do, but it's just my nativity that says this could all just end if everyone decided to become better people, if all the money that went to the porn industry was used to build and maintain shelters and help people, this problem wouldn't exist. But at the core I'm expecting everyone to give of themselves. And really, if problems could be solved that way, we'd live in a perfect utopia of fairies and rainbow dash. XDDD

And yeah, I don't think anyone who chooses to do something out of necessity is a bad person, becasue I know if I was in their shoes, I would probably do the same. But at the same time I look at the world black and white sometimes, Even if it's what they have to do, it's still not right. And I want to place some blame on them for that, becasue it's still wrong even if right and wrong doesn't really apply to them at the time. But I will admit it's not my place to pass judgement, and honestly I don't know. I'm pretty sheltered and naive.

But yeah I agree with everything you said, I think the solution isn't found in placing blame.

Quote from: SourCandy on June 23, 2012, 10:11:10 PM
I agree, and I know... Like I get that at some point people have to do what they have to do, but it's just my nativity that says this could all just end if everyone decided to become better people, if all the money that went to the porn industry was used to build and maintain shelters and help people, this problem wouldn't exist. But at the core I'm expecting everyone to give of themselves. And really, if problems could be solved that way, we'd live in a perfect utopia of fairies and rainbow dash. XDDD

And yeah, I don't think anyone who chooses to do something out of necessity is a bad person, becasue I know if I was in their shoes, I would probably do the same. But at the same time I look at the world black and white sometimes, Even if it's what they have to do, it's still not right. And I want to place some blame on them for that, becasue it's still wrong even if right and wrong doesn't really apply to them at the time. But I will admit it's not my place to pass judgement, and honestly I don't know. I'm pretty sheltered and naive.

But yeah I agree with everything you said, I think the solution isn't found in placing blame.

I admire the honesty in your post.

It pretty much boils down to being that sometimes the wrong thing to do is the only thing you see that you can do.

I only consider something truly wrong when it both does harm to others and can realistically be avoided.

If you're desperate for money, and you need it because you NEED the drugs you're on, the drugs you started long ago but just can't stop, and if you haven't been there you probably can't understand the depths of human desperation in addiction, then prostituting yourself or stealing suddenly become the only 'realistic' options in your mind apart from suicide.

And it doesn't always have to be drugs, I say drugs (including alcohol) because it's one of the most common causes of this kind of sheer desperation, but it's not the only one. Maybe you have an addiction to something else that needs money (gambling addiction is a very real thing for example), maybe you don't have an addiction at all but you feel you NEED the money NOW for some other reason.

Does that make it right? Of course not, but things are the way they are. The most constructive line of discussion is of course what to do about it.

What's not constructive is simple right and wrong, black and white, ban this, ban that lines of thinking.

It's easy if you've either never been there and/or never been in close contact with people who have, to not see it close up, to not see just how hopeless some peoples situations can seem and overwhelming.

Common simplistic arguments include:

Ban drugs/war on drugs: Doesn't work, has just made the problem a whole lot worse, provides a black market for criminal profiteering, and people still get drugs anyway.
They should just get a job: How? The war on drugs has made criminals out of addicts, and people don't want criminals working for them, even without a record, they don't want an addict working for them regardless.
They shouldn't have gotten in that situation in the first place: Easy to say, but life isn't that simple. Not everyone reacts the same way to the same environmental influences, we already know that genetics play a huge role in addictive behavour. Regardless, unless you've never made a mistake, don't judge. A lot of people first start their addictions in their early to mid teens. Can you say you're the same person now you were then?

So to get back to the topic at hand, I talk about addiction because I'm talking about desperation, and I'm talking about desperation because that's why most criminals end up criminals, most sex workers end up sex workers.

Is this true 100% across the board? No, some people are criminals because they have serious mental disorders that cause them to not think or feel like the rest of us and have no regard for anyone by themselves, there's some people in sex work who do it because they feel they want to be there (even that is still a complex issue, regarding why they want to be there, studies have consistently shown women in sex work have a significantly higher rate of experience of childhood sexual abuse than the general population).

But these are generalizations of the majority and explanations for why these phenomena continue.

And specifically why blaming the desperate is not constructive and only serves to hurt people.

We all tend to agree that something needs to be done, but unfortunately most people don't want to really take the effort to see the morally gray in our world, and just end up making things worse.

 It's just a shame that there are so few public images of us that aren't sexualized or sensationalized.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on June 24, 2012, 03:10:34 AM
It's just a shame that there are so few public images of us that aren't sexualized or sensationalized.

I don't see it as particularly different to the ongoing exploitation of women generally.

Don't get me wrong, women's rights and gender equality have made significant advances in an extremely short period of time, and that's something to be proud of.

But exploitation targeted at women is still very real and ongoing. It exists in the over-sexualisation of our society generally. The whole advertising prevalence of "if you buy our product hot women will have sex with you".

These fortunately much more ingrained and subtle forms of sexism and exploitation compared to that of virtually all of the rest of human history, which is a good thing, but unfortunately makes solutions to it much much harder.