He gives some warnings at the beginning of this video about triggering and such so please pay attention before continuing to watch.

I don't think trans men or CAFAB trans people should use "tr***y" because it's always used towards CAMAB trans people. I don't feel that trans men experience trans misogyny which is part of what that word is about.

I do agree that more often CAMAB trans people experience objectification and fetishization from outside of the queer community while CAFAB trans people experience it more from within the trans community. The problem I have with the idea of "it's more okay for trans men to be fetishized this way" or how it's not as important to address is because it's equally bothersome and generally bad. I don't feel like I'm a part of the queer community because queer women sexualize me in a way that I'm uncomfortable with. I'm not okay with being treated as female, and I have experienced this from cis straight men so I don't feel it's exclusive to the queer community.

Eh, I couldn't get more into it past the first few minutes of actual discussion. If I were to type up a response to this video it would end up being a book and going into watching it I wasn't completely sure if I'd be able to watch it all (because it's long and intense).

Sooooo that's my answer for right now.

I can't comment on the video because I don't watch videos online, and hardly watch TV, I just can't keep concentrated on it.  But on whether or not I think that trans men can say the "t word", I think that it depends on the situation.  Baring in mind that at school I'm seen as a lesbian, if I'm just around friends there I will say things that I know could be seen by others as homophobic slurs because I know that everyone around me knows that I'm not being serious.  But if I was in a situation where there were people who didn't know who I was, or weren't going to understand what and why I was saying it, then I wouldn't dream of saying stuff like that.  Similarly I wouldn't stand for anyone saying homophobic stuff.

On the topic of trans, I feel similarly, only I don't do or say anything that would compromise me.  One situation that springs to mind was when guys in my class was calling someone else a "tr***ny" because he allowed girls to put make-up on him and was clearly enjoying it, and they claimed they found mascara in his blazer pocket.  I didn't say anything then, because a) it would probably out me when they combined it with my presentation and b) it happened to be towards a person who's done a lot of bad stuff to me before.  (I know the last part makes me sound like a douche but I don't want to go into more detail, just believe that it's not just a petty grudge.)

Quote from: Nygeel on June 28, 2012, 12:04:42 PM
I don't think trans men or CAFAB trans people should use "tr***y" because it's always used towards CAMAB trans people. I don't feel that trans men experience trans misogyny which is part of what that word is about.

I just wanted to say here, that it's not always used towards trans women, there has been at least one case where I've been called a tr***y.  It's more common to be used for trans women but I think that could partly be to do with public perception of trans* people and how they automatically associate trans with trans women.  I think the word being used towards trans women more than trans men is more likely due to that rather than misogyny, simply because the average person who calls someone a "tr***y" isn't thinking that deeply about it.

I am one of those people who could call myself a tra**y if I felt like,
its not about what you say, its about the contest and they way you say it.

as he say in the video his been called ->-bleeped-<-got in school and at gay clubs but in the queer comunite it wasnt meant to be hurtfull and he didnt decribe to be offended, then its not offensive..

there are black people who go around call themself ->-bleeped-<-s, and there friends say stuff like "your crazy ->-bleeped-<-"
but as soon some reatard start to spit at the person calling them a f*** ->-bleeped-<- then it out of sudden something ells.
---
people should call themself whatever they like, whenever they feel.
------------

No.

Misogyny is not okay.

--Jay Jay

 "I look at photos of myself, and I look like such a ->-bleeped-<-!"-Lady Gaga

"I've never sounded more like a ->-bleeped-<- in my life."-Neil Patrick Harris (believing he sounded like Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs)

"So you need to go to Christopher and Hudson and get those ->-bleeped-<-s on the corner there — that would be perfect"-Lance Bass

"Having to tell them (my parents) my fiancé had cheated on me with a ->-bleeped-<- who sold his/her story to the press, was the most uncomfortable moment... It's hard enough to get your head around someone cheating on you, but when someone is a chick with a dick? Up until then I'd always thought that the worst way to get cheated on would be with an ugly girl."-Kelly Osbourne

It's used in a way to degrade and hurt trans women, it has a long running history of being used against trans women and not trans men.

Quote from: Andy8715 on June 28, 2012, 02:27:02 PM
No.

that was the shortest response I ever seen on a forum.

I have a reaction of disgust towards that term and I find it puerile. But I'm not going to stop someone else from using it. It's their right to free speech/expression. It's also my right not to associate with them.

Quote from: Poptart on June 28, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
I have a reaction of disgust towards that term and I find it puerile. But I'm not going to stop someone else from using it. It's their right to free speech/expression. It's also my right not to associate with them.

I could not agree more, especially when that term is used to refer to someone who identifies the way that I do.

Words are just words, and if someone chooses to be offended by them, then that is their right. I use a lot of "offensive" terms when referring to myself because the word itself isn't bad, and I use them within a certain context to get certain points across. An example would be this: in the Japanese language there is exactly one word that is considered to be derogatory on its own, and the term is not longer used. Everything else that can be said in the language is said within in a certain context, and based on the context it is determined whether it was offensive or not.

But, that is my own opinion. I always think of the Louis CK joke on bad words. The context of it implies the meaning, not the word itself. To me its just a word and I refuse to give it power of over me. I wouldn't say something with the sole purpose of hurting anyone, though.

No. Words may be words but they're still said to be hurtful.

(sorry for the confussement)
This kinda made me wonder alot

from where I live we used the word "transexual" adopted from the english word.. exactly the same..
the meaning is slightly diffrent and many transexuals has stop using it and find it "wrong to use."
to point is, In english you got 2 words for gender
"gender" and "sex"
here we only got 1 word who both mean gender/sex, and the word "sex" dosent has anything to do with "gender/sex at all" its only "sex" as in anything "sexual-stuff". Because of that people found it disturbing since it would sound like a "sexual fettish" or something sexually,
Many transgenderes been compared by goverment, or simply ignorants to be sexual criminals or fetish, so they where tired of the statement and many now prefern using a team who in english like "transgender"

so if I am om susan like now I would use the team "transexual" if I go to the nearest meeting I might get the same kind of statement for using the word as the guy who like to use the word T***y about himself.
its kinda the same topic actually. I guess not many people here would find the word transexual misleading at all,
I dont mind the word either that much, even if I do understand the point.
I also understand why people dislikes words like ->-bleeped-<-. But again its really what we put in our words,
theres thing I dislike when people call me very much,
when I grew up I was used to be called "sissy*" (there no proper translation for it but its somekind of cute* word for little girls) My teacher meant no harm, But I am imigrant, and by my other native languarge that "sissy*" was only used to decribe "whores" so sure I didnt like the word, but I didnt mind if my teacher called the other girls the word as I knew there meaning wasnt the same, as it was for me (+ I sure hated the girly word.)

Quote from: Frank on June 28, 2012, 06:03:30 PM
No. Words may be words but they're still said to be hurtful.

And you are free to disagree with me. I was saying that, especially in English, word meanings change all the time. I don't personally find words to be the problem, just the way they are being used. I was just stating my personal opinion about word usage. Take the n word as an example: African Americans call their buddies that word all the time. They re-purposed it to suit their culture. The word has a history of being used to inflict harm, but in this case, they have taken ownership of it. The word isn't hurtful - the context it is used is. That was my train of thought, at any rate.

Like I said before, I would never say something to cause someone else harm, and I would never use a derogatory term to refer to someone else, because that's just human decency.

Quote from: Ayden on June 28, 2012, 06:26:25 PM
And you are free to disagree with me. I was saying that, especially in English, word meanings change all the time. I don't personally find words to be the problem, just the way they are being used. I was just stating my personal opinion about word usage. Take the n word as an example: African Americans call their buddies that word all the time. They re-purposed it to suit their culture. The word has a history of being used to inflict harm, but in this case, they have taken ownership of it. The word isn't hurtful - the context it is used is. That was my train of thought, at any rate.

Like I said before, I would never say something to cause someone else harm, and I would never use a derogatory term to refer to someone else, because that's just human decency.

I wasn't directing that at you but good points anyway.

Frank,

Sorry about that. The coffee hasn't kicked in yet. I was concerned that my comment had offended someone. It's an interesting argument on both sides, though, and I think its not an easy one for people to talk about.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 28, 2012, 03:19:15 PM
It's used in a way to degrade and hurt trans women, it has a long running history of being used against trans women and not trans men.

I encourage people to try to watch what he has to say. I think it's very powerful and worthwhile. I realize it's a somewhat long video. He's really going out on a limb to make it and is baring his soul. Meanwhile, I'll reluctantly take the risk of trying to sum up some of what he has to say at the great risk of not conveying him correctly or leaving important points out accidentally.

He acknowledges that the term has historically applied to trans women in the video. However, he points out that trans men essentially have no history because their existence hasn't really been acknowledged until very recently and people are still largely ignorant of their existence. They've simply been thought of as dykes when that's not correct. He refers to it as "erasure" of their identities. That's why it's been essentially an insult for trans women. He also points out that people are starting to apply it in an insulting way to trans men now that they are starting to discover them. He himself has been called a ->-bleeped-<- in an insulting way a number of times.

I'm not personally a big fan of reclaiming insults and I would never describe someone with the t-word and I try to educate people that it's not an acceptable word for describing anyone. I know a lot of gay men have tried to reclaim and use the word "->-bleeped-<-" to take the power out of it. Some trans women have done the same with "->-bleeped-<-". But it does seem to be a kind of tactic for solidarity that some people believe in.

If someone calls him that (and they do) can he not say "Yeah, that's right. That's what I am. I'm a ->-bleeped-<- and proud of it and f**k you if you have a problem with it" ? If he can't say that, then what is he supposed to say? I guess I'm skeptical of the point of view that says trans women can call themselves that to reclaim the word and take the power out of it, but trans men can't.

I also think sometimes misogyny is at the root of some trans man hatred-- the idea that some might see them as women pretending to be men and that they have no right. I'm sure there are guys here who have experienced that.

I don't know how you can "reclaim" a word that doesn't apply to us. I understand re: the reclamation of slurs but they are usually not successful. The "N" word isn't really entirely reclaimed, for instance. You hear it in the "hood" perhaps but not on a college campus (at least I never have). College kids may know that it is a derogatory word. If a white person uses it is *always* offensive. BTW, I hear kids use many insulting words like retard, "dog", etc. None of these has any hope of being reclaimed. Perhaps the same could be said of f***t. I would not use this term as I am not a gay guy. I think aside from his little group... Nor will I use the term tr***, in some (mistaken) attempt to "reclaim" it.

(Actually the PUSH people would like kids to stop using the "n" word, as they know that underneath it is offensive. Just because you use it on yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't come from a place of self-hate.)

BTW, I have not watched his 15 minute video. I tried, but he needs to get to the point.  I think he should be able to make his case more concisely, if he wants this to gain any traction. I personally think it won't.


--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on June 29, 2012, 02:50:37 PM
I don't know how you can "reclaim" a word that doesn't apply to us.

This. If you've not had the word used against you, you have no right to reclaim it.

Quote from: dalebert on June 29, 2012, 02:09:09 PM
If someone calls him that (and they do) can he not say "Yeah, that's right. That's what I am. I'm a ->-bleeped-<- and proud of it and f**k you if you have a problem with it" ? If he can't say that, then what is he supposed to say?

I guess thats the thing about being trans, We are not suposed to say anything..
even when people threat us like s*** we still has to be claim and correct.
thats some of the few things, I both understand, but also Hate about being trans.