>If someone calls him that (and they do) can he not say "Yeah, that's right. That's what I am. I'm a ->-bleeped-<- and proud of it and f**k you if you have a problem with it" ? If he can't say that, then what is he supposed to say? I guess I'm skeptical of the point of view that says trans women can call themselves that to reclaim the word and take the power out of it, but trans men can't.


Yeah Dalebert, I don't see anything wrong with that. If someone is intent on hating it sounds like a possible way of deflecting some insult. But it's another thing to go promoting it. There's always some insult and trying to find all the words and make them neutral is quite a task-- and not entirely so successful (see my comments on the "n" word-- I don't actually think it works).

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on June 29, 2012, 03:16:48 PM
Yeah Dalebert, I don't see anything wrong with that. If someone is intent on hating it sounds like a possible way of deflecting some insult. But it's another thing to go promoting it. There's always some insult and trying to find all the words and make them neutral is quite a task-- and not entirely so successful (see my comments on the "n" word-- I don't actually think it works).

I'm mostly with you there. I'm not a fan of it. I don't call myself a ->-bleeped-<- and "->-bleeped-<-got" is particularly hateful-sounding to me. Don't want to have anything to do with it.

I understand where he's coming from in the video and he has in my mind the right to say whatever the heck he wants. I have been called a Dike lesbian ->-bleeped-<- queer all kinds of somewhat similar terms I don't really like or feel comfortable with. Personally I have have been beaten up and raped and hurt. Though I wouldn't want to call myself ->-bleeped-<-. Usually when people start calling me names i just simply say So no matter what they call me but thats just me personally but its not like trans men don't get harassed too maybe not as much but they do.The thing is that other than maybe a few small groups or a few close friends most trans men I know don't let people know or just learn to take it. Probably a lot of people wont agree with me but i don't care what someone wants to call themselves especially since words change.
for example : It was a very queer and mysterious night that night when .....   ( queer=unusual) when nowadays most people use queer to describe someone who is gay.

I read all of these replies and they pretty much summed up the video, so I didn't watch it.

Anyways, I use the word ->-bleeped-<- and I have no problem with close friends using it as long as it's not in a derogatory way.

I mean it's like the same thing with the "n" word (as everyone referred to). Most of my friends/closest family are black and toss the word around a lot. Now I don't use the word much at all and when I do, of course I don't mean it serious and I only use it around the people who know me on a personal level like that. To get to the point, I don't/wouldn't use it around any black people (or anyone) I'm not close to since they'd more than likely find it offensive because it's just not normally acceptable for European people to use the "n" word (because of the history between the two).

I feel the same way with cis people using the word ->-bleeped-<-. It's just normally not acceptable because of the negative history between cis people and the word. However, like I said, if I'm close to them, or know it's not being used in a derogatory way then I don't really care.
As for people using it offensively, well I don't like it, but at the same time they have their freedom of speech.

tldr;
Personally, it's just about respecting the people around you and watching what you say, where you say it.

Just wanted to say that saying nigga is not the same as saying ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Andy8715 on June 29, 2012, 09:59:43 PM
Just wanted to say that saying nigga is not the same as saying ->-bleeped-<-.

Yeah I was gonna point that out, but then I would've had to write another paragraph, so I was like . . . nah  whatever

Quote from: Nygeel on June 28, 2012, 03:19:15 PM"Having to tell them (my parents) my fiancé had cheated on me with a ->-bleeped-<- who sold his/her story to the press, was the most uncomfortable moment... It's hard enough to get your head around someone cheating on you, but when someone is a chick with a dick? Up until then I'd always thought that the worst way to get cheated on would be with an ugly girl."-Kelly Osbourne

I never cared for Kelly Osbourne until I read that online a while ago. It went from neutral to pissed off in a nanosecond. She really showed some bold stupidity on that one.

Anyway, although I have been called a '->-bleeped-<-' before, it's not a word that I feel comfortable with using/being used to refer to me personally. If someone else wants to use it for themselves, whether they are transmen or transwomen, it's their call. When someone's saying "->-bleeped-<-s" referring to a group/ more than one transperson, doesn't really sit right for me. But each to their own.

Regarding the erasure that he speaks of about trans men, I'm losing count of how many times I've had to explain to someone the difference between trans men and trans women. Lots of people think both refer to trans women. There's a lot of educating to do. Trans men are still largely invisible. I know I've heard stories here and by the person who made the video about how when they say they're trans, some people have said "So you want to become a woman?"

Quote from: Papa Taco on June 28, 2012, 04:41:16 PM
I just think to myself that that is probably the last word some women heard as they were being beaten, raped, and/or killed.

<3 Thank you

Quote from: dalebert on June 30, 2012, 06:25:09 AM
Regarding the erasure that he speaks of about trans men, I'm losing count of how many times I've had to explain to someone the difference between trans men and trans women. Lots of people think both refer to trans women. There's a lot of educating to do. Trans men are still largely invisible. I know I've heard stories here and by the person who made the video about how when they say they're trans, some people have said "So you want to become a woman?"

or dressing up as one..

danm I got SO many guys who are like "your hot, but can I see you when your dressing as a girl"
me: "NO! "

I haven't read any posts, but watched the full video.

I have to say that he makes a good argument. I was previously of the opinion that trans guys do not have the right to say ->-bleeped-<- as I've never heard it applied to us. But how am I going to deny his right to use the word when it has been directed towards him?

So this video has changed my opinion. I'm cool with trans women and men using the word, although I'll never use it myself.

Thanks for posting this.

Quote from: aleon515 on June 29, 2012, 02:50:37 PM
The "N" word isn't really entirely reclaimed, for instance. You hear it in the "hood" perhaps but not on a college campus (at least I never have). College kids may know that it is a derogatory word.

I knew plenty of educated African Americans who claimed that word, so saying that someone who is "educated" versus coming from "the hood" is the difference is incorrect. One of my father's supervisors at the hospital he worked in (the man who ran the entire hospital operation for the Air Force) was a doctor, and he used the term in reference to himself without any self hate at all. I knew a few guys at my university that used that word to refer to themselves and even call me (a white person) by it as a term of endearment. I was their "little cracker n*****".

Quote from: aleon515 on June 29, 2012, 03:16:48 PM
Yeah Dalebert, I don't see anything wrong with that. If someone is intent on hating it sounds like a possible way of deflecting some insult. But it's another thing to go promoting it. There's always some insult and trying to find all the words and make them neutral is quite a task-- and not entirely so successful (see my comments on the "n" word-- I don't actually think it works).

--Jay Jay

What about queer or dyke? Those two have been reclaimed rather dramatically. I wouldn't say they are exactly neutral, but they get used by and for queer folks more than they get used against these days. Hell, wikipedia's page for "Queer" begins: "an umbrella term for sexual minorities" and doesn't even get to the insult part of it till the second paragraph. And nobody really questions a gay woman's right to call themselves and any other gay women dykes - despite how brutal an insult that word also is. I mean we have "Dyke March"... but no corresponding equivalent for the trans* or gay male communities.

Don't know what makes 'em different that that worked, but it isn't true to say it never works.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 05, 2012, 07:17:10 AM
What about queer or dyke? Those two have been reclaimed rather dramatically. I wouldn't say they are exactly neutral, but they get used by and for queer folks more than they get used against these days. Hell, wikipedia's page for "Queer" begins: "an umbrella term for sexual minorities" and doesn't even get to the insult part of it till the second paragraph. And nobody really questions a gay woman's right to call themselves and any other gay women dykes - despite how brutal an insult that word also is. I mean we have "Dyke March"... but no corresponding equivalent for the trans* or gay male communities.

Don't know what makes 'em different that that worked, but it isn't true to say it never works.

Just bolding the bits I'm going to address.

I'm not sure if you're asking trans men if it's okay to call themselves those two words, or just asking about those specific groups reclaiming those two words.

Since the word "dyke" has been used and has a history with women who are interested in women it's appropriate for them to reclaim the word as it's theirs to reclaim. "Tr***y" does not have the same history with trans men but does have a similar history with trans women, and is theirs to reclaim.

And in general gay male is seen above gay female in terms of who is pushing for rights (especially if they are white, cis, and middle-upper middle class). At the last pride parade-which I think is the most mainstream event within the LGBTQ community-it was all about the gay men. They have their own market! Anyways...where I am, we have trans march. I've never been to a dyke march but I have been to a dyke ball, and have seen the unfortunate effects of the most recent dyke march.

Nygeel, the post I was responding to was arguing that reclaiming slurs doesn't work, I was pointing out two cases where it did work, at least to a degree. Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear.

The point about the Dyke March was specifically the use of a reclaimed slur in the title. And the lack of similar usage for, say, "->-bleeped-<-" or "->-bleeped-<-." I'm aware of the history.

I've seen "->-bleeped-<-" being used against FTMs, lesbians, and masculine looking women.
I think the fact that there is a longer history, or more noted,  of the word being used against those whose first birth certificate said male, is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Quote from: Julian on June 29, 2012, 03:04:49 PM
This. If you've not had the word used against you, you have no right to reclaim it.

What if it is used against your demographic, but you've never personally had the word used against you?

Quote from: Papa Taco on June 28, 2012, 04:41:16 PM
I don't think it's OK, and I don't use it. For reasons others have said, it's a word that's been used to dehumanize our sisters. We, as transmen, can't "reclaim" something that usually isn't used to dehumanize us.

I just think to myself that that is probably the last word some women heard as they were being beaten, raped, and/or killed.

How often does a word have to be used against you before you can reclaim it?

Quote from: Ayden on June 28, 2012, 06:26:25 PM
And you are free to disagree with me. I was saying that, especially in English, word meanings change all the time. I don't personally find words to be the problem, just the way they are being used. I was just stating my personal opinion about word usage. Take the n word as an example: African Americans call their buddies that word all the time. They re-purposed it to suit their culture. The word has a history of being used to inflict harm, but in this case, they have taken ownership of it. The word isn't hurtful - the context it is used is. That was my train of thought, at any rate.

Like I said before, I would never say something to cause someone else harm, and I would never use a derogatory term to refer to someone else, because that's just human decency.

There is a difference between nigga and ->-bleeped-<-.
A lot of people don't like the term African American, since many have never been to Africa.

Quote from: aleon515 on June 29, 2012, 02:50:37 PM
I don't know how you can "reclaim" a word that doesn't apply to us. I understand re: the reclamation of slurs but they are usually not successful. The "N" word isn't really entirely reclaimed, for instance. You hear it in the "hood" perhaps but not on a college campus (at least I never have). College kids may know that it is a derogatory word. If a white person uses it is *always* offensive. BTW, I hear kids use many insulting words like retard, "dog", etc. None of these has any hope of being reclaimed. Perhaps the same could be said of f***t. I would not use this term as I am not a gay guy. I think aside from his little group... Nor will I use the term tr***, in some (mistaken) attempt to "reclaim" it.

(Actually the PUSH people would like kids to stop using the "n" word, as they know that underneath it is offensive. Just because you use it on yourself it doesn't mean it doesn't come from a place of self-hate.)

BTW, I have not watched his 15 minute video. I tried, but he needs to get to the point.  I think he should be able to make his case more concisely, if he wants this to gain any traction. I personally think it won't.


--Jay Jay

Where I live I hear nigga every day, it isn't considered offensive. I have had friends call me nigga, I am 100% white. Although, there are people on my Italian side who don't consider themselves white, but that's another story.  I have seen both white and black people being beat up for saying ->-bleeped-<-. My campus isn't  in the hood, but a lot of people from the hood go there.

Quote from: Ayden on July 05, 2012, 06:59:30 AM
I knew plenty of educated African Americans who claimed that word, so saying that someone who is "educated" versus coming from "the hood" is the difference is incorrect. One of my father's supervisors at the hospital he worked in (the man who ran the entire hospital operation for the Air Force) was a doctor, and he used the term in reference to himself without any self hate at all. I knew a few guys at my university that used that word to refer to themselves and even call me (a white person) by it as a term of endearment. I was their "little cracker n*****".

Another point...
You can be educated and be from the hood!
Because I was poor I got most of my undergrad covered with need based aid, and then my mom married way up and they are screwing my free ride till I'm 25.

And as I was writing this I seriously just got an email from http://www.hood.edu/

Quote from: Jesse7 on July 05, 2012, 01:03:44 PM
Another point...
You can be educated and be from the hood!
Because I was poor I got most of my undergrad covered with need based aid, and then my mom married way up and they are screwing my free ride till I'm 25.

And as I was writing this I seriously just got an email from http://www.hood.edu/

That's true. I went to a community college where I did hear this stuff from black students. OTOH, I went to a tech school and never heard it. It was kind of uncool at the tech school where everyone was being as nerdy as possible. :-)

--Jay Jay

Quote from: Jesse7 on July 05, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
There is a difference between nigga and ->-bleeped-<-.
A lot of people don't like the term African American, since many have never been to Africa.


Where I live I hear nigga every day, it isn't considered offensive. I have had friends call me nigga, I am 100% white. Although, there are people on my Italian side who don't consider themselves white, but that's another story.  I have seen both white and black people being beat up for saying ->-bleeped-<-. My campus isn't  in the hood, but a lot of people from the hood go there.

My point was that context denotes meaning between words. If nigga doesn't work for you, then replace it with Jew which is used both in the literal sense for someone of Jewish descent or as a derogatory term.( I know that isn't perfect either, but I have had Jewish people tell me to use the term Jew when referring to them.) And yes, I know some people get offended by the term "African American" just like some get offended when someone uses "black", "dark skinned" etc. There is no way to avoid offending people if they allow it to bother them. I know some of the guys on this forum do not consider themselves trans men, but just regular guys, whereas I don't consider myself a normal guy because I didn't have those same experiences.

Context denotes if the word it being used hurtfully. A word is just a word. Humans give words meanings. Like my husband said, there is no wisdom in a library without humans to act upon it. But, this is just my personal opinion and by no means does anyone need to agree with me.