You guys are a bunch of pushovers.

The OP is attacked, fights back, and you say she did something wrong.

Saying what you would do in a situation you were not involved in, throwing around hypothetical worst case scenarios.

Majik, you got my support, from the sounds of it I think you did awesome.

Good for you.  I have no doubt the guy will think twice before opening his mouth again to anyone.  One thing I have learned about violence and fighting while learning to defend myself, in many other countries they view violence much differently than in the United States and what this guy did would typically be considered someone looking for a fight and the cops probably wouldn't even investigate it.  They would see it as well you deserved what you got for running your mouth.  It's such a shame that only a few states allow you to defend yourself in that situation without fear of prosecution.

On a side note though.  I bet it felt damn good to put him in his place.  I train in Target Focus Training.  Phenomenal training system.  Very.effective and you can learn enough in a weekend to be comfortable knowing you will survive most truly violent encounters.

Donna Jean is correct. That is assault. However, where I live (Utah) it would be overlooked and possibly I provoked it. The police are inept and transphobic also. If I resorted to violence the repercusions would be severe.

A punch (or whatever constitutes "dropping" someone) to floor a guy sounds like a decent equalizer to bra-snapping and attempted public humiliation.  However, I wouldn't worry so much about the law in that scenario as I would about my immediate surroundings.  It's good that you had a supporter or two on the sidelines in the aftermatch, but they could just as easily have been his equally stupid friends attempting to defend him and leave you even worse off than just a bra-snapping.  I hope you were careful in considering such possibilities when you acted.

Personally, I'd rather invest in a taser/mace, but good for you for standing up for yourself. 

Why are MTFs so violent?

Quote from: pretty on July 08, 2012, 02:41:35 PM
Why are MTFs so violent?

Tee hee?:p

Quote from: Adam1 on July 08, 2012, 02:44:22 PM
Tee hee?:p

Bein' serious here... violence is not the answer 

Quote from: pretty on July 08, 2012, 03:04:15 PM
Bein' serious here... violence is not the answer 

Of course not!


In all honesty, I've never been violent towards another person. In fact, immuch too passive irl too even yell at someone.

Make catty comments?yes

B*tchfight?no thanks lol!

I would just be careful if I were you I understand why you did it but as a few others have mentioned it might bring in worse consequences in the future.

Quote from: agfrommd on July 06, 2012, 07:35:12 PM
Don't know what country you live in, so I can't say for sure, but in just about all parts of the US, what you just described is assault, and that person would be arrested.

Consider reporting this as a crime.

From one lady to another...I'm PROUD OF YOU!!! You were in danger and you took care of this cretin! I agree with the above quote...consider reporting this waste of air to the police and prosecute as far as the law allows!

It disappoints me that there are still people out there like this. But I have to say I agree completely that defending yourself in any means necessary is the appropriate response. Chattanooga TN is slowly becoming a pretty tolerant of gay and lesbian couples, not like say San Fran or New York, but getting there. When out with my brother-in-law he and his partner might get a few head turns at the most. Never had anyone say anything, or let alone assault someone in my sight. Though I do think that no matter how accepting your city is, the police are probably gonna be pretty iffy. It's their job to find guilt in disputes for one person or another, isn't always the right person.

Quote from: opheliaxen on July 07, 2012, 04:33:25 AM
Google cece mcdonald.  She was attacked by a skinhead and his gf and ended up killing the skinhead to save her life.  Shes about to go to a male prison in Minnesota because of it.  If you can avoid violence you should.  Most situations can he diffused with an incredulous eye roll.

Plus I don't know about you but after years of hrt most Guys and girls could probably kick my ass

YES, this happened; but was what happened to her really in any way justice?  I very much resent CeCe's case being held up as a reason NOT to defend ones self.   Even when you fail to defend yourself and are battered and bloody, dumb or prejudicial (I would say both) "law enforcement" officials will frequently treat you like the criminal—and I know this from experience. 

Would it have been better that she had done nothing and possibly have been killed herself?  This kind of low-life has killed totally innocent people in such situations.  (Has anyone ever received the death penalty for a hate-crime murder?)  It seems to me that the law does a very poor job of protecting people like us in too many places in our society. 

It is quite doubtful that CeCe's—or even Majik's—situation could be dealt with at all well with an incredulous eye roll.  Also it is a great deal easier to take the intellectual, and objective, point of view if you aren't the subject of especially a violent attack.  I put forth the old question; just how much is one supposed to take in the name of knowing that he/she did the: good, "right", intelligent, Biblically correct, lawful, etc thing?   As long as human beings remain what they are and the law is as "imperfect" as it is .....


To further the injustice of CeCe's case, they're sending her to men's prison.   

Why isn't our whole community rallying around this young transgendered woman?  Cece's case should make every MtF, regardless of degree or variety, fighting mad.  In a world where too many of us are murdered yearly, she was convicted for surviving!

OK, I need back into this discussion.

I haven't hit anyone since my school days, but I'm not a whole lot bigger than I was back then.

The only reaction I ever got when I hit anyone was laughter.

I'm still under 160 lbs (and male-bodied with no hrt). If I hit another male bodied person of any reasonable size, he'd probably be able to kill me.

If you're big or athletic people it's all very well and good to advise people to defend themselves, but be aware that not everyone may be as physically capable as you are.

Quote from: agfrommd on July 10, 2012, 08:53:12 PM
OK, I need back into this discussion.

I haven't hit anyone since my school days, but I'm not a whole lot bigger than I was back then.

The only reaction I ever got when I hit anyone was laughter.

I'm still under 160 lbs (and male-bodied with no hrt). If I hit another male bodied person of any reasonable size, he'd probably be able to kill me.

If you're big or athletic people it's all very well and good to advise people to defend themselves, but be aware that not everyone may be as physically capable as you are.

That's why we created weapons.

Knives, guns, tasers, stunguns, OC/pepper spray, a sharp stick.

If you aren't even willing to TRY and protect yourself you're just asking to be victimized.

It's all very well and good to advise people to not defend themselves when you have a naive 'civilized' view of the world, but the world is only barely civilized. Bad people ARE out there and frankly, people too frightened to defend themselves, I feel sorry for them but this is evolution 101.

I'm sure this sounds hard and cynical and dangerous, but so is the reality of the world.

Quote from: agfrommd on July 10, 2012, 08:53:12 PM
OK, I need back into this discussion.

I haven't hit anyone since my school days, but I'm not a whole lot bigger than I was back then.

The only reaction I ever got when I hit anyone was laughter.

I'm still under 160 lbs (and male-bodied with no hrt). If I hit another male bodied person of any reasonable size, he'd probably be able to kill me.

If you're big or athletic people it's all very well and good to advise people to defend themselves, but be aware that not everyone may be as physically capable as you are.

I understand you.  Your point is very well taken.   Also, I'm not saying that retaliatory violence is necessarily the right thing.  I don't think that's really what any of us on this side of the debate are really saying.  The problem is those who are so very quick to, and automatically label it the wrong thing.  (For those who are too frail to physically defend themselves there are things such as pepper-spray, etc.)   

If our society were anywhere close to being what it is suppose to be—and claims to be—then, retaliating or fighting back would definitely be wrong.  The fact is that all of us live in the real world; and many of us are sick and tired of being passive victims—and totally relying on law enforcement which is all too frequently hardly any better than those assailing us.

I guess what I'm saying is that it is time for a better answer than "turn the other cheek", etc.  Saying that we could be very badly hurt doesn't suffice either.  Couldn't that—in fact hasn't it—happen anyway?

Quote from: patstar on July 10, 2012, 08:42:44 PM
To further the injustice of CeCe's case, they're sending her to men's prison.   

Why isn't our whole community rallying around this young transgendered woman?  Cece's case should make every MtF, regardless of degree or variety, fighting mad.  In a world where too many of us are murdered yearly, she was convicted for surviving!

I completely agree she shouldn't be sent to a male prison.

But otherwise, the details of the situation are very sketchy and we really don't know the truth about what happened. I won't defend someone as being innocent of wrong doing for no greater reason than them having something in common with me.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 10, 2012, 10:45:15 PM
I completely agree she shouldn't be sent to a male prison.

But otherwise, the details of the situation are very sketchy and we really don't know the truth about what happened. I won't defend someone as being innocent of wrong doing for no greater reason than them having something in common with me.

*Sigh*, please forgive me if I sound a little impatient.   How much do you really need to know?  The obvious facts are: she was being verbally and physically harassed by a trio of hate-mongering GOONS, she had a bottle broken in her face requiring eleven stitches; she was arrested immediately —but not the remaining two goons, one of  whom had smashed the bottle in her face—who had started the whole thing.  More so, the "victim" had a swastika tattoo on his chest and criminal (a skin-head with a criminal record—now there's a real surprise!) history, which wasn't allowed in evidence in her trial.

It is also pretty clear that she and her friends tried to walk away; and that he followed her down the street.  If a lot of it seems sketchy, that is probably by the design of the perpetrators of this outrage.

Related Fact(s): George Zimmerman shot and killed a single unarmed teenager and wasn't arrested until weeks later.  More than few would say that the details of this case are AT LEAST equally "sketchy".


If we keep letting them under-value our lives, then our sisters shall continue to receive injustice......or/and die.

Quote from: patstar on July 10, 2012, 11:54:08 PM
*Sigh*, please forgive me if I sound a little impatient.   How much do you really need to know?  The obvious facts are: she was being verbally and physically harassed by a trio of hate-mongering GOONS, she had a bottle broken in her face requiring eleven stitches; she was arrested immediately —but not the remaining two goons, one of  whom had smashed the bottle in her face—who had started the whole thing.  More so, the "victim" had a swastika tattoo on his chest and criminal (a skin-head with a criminal record—now there's a real surprise!) history, which wasn't allowed in evidence in her trial.

It is also pretty clear that she and her friends tried to walk away; and that he followed her down the street.  If a lot of it seems sketchy, that is probably by the design of the perpetrators of this outrage.

Related Fact(s): George Zimmerman shot and killed a single unarmed teenager and wasn't arrested until weeks later.  More than few would say that the details of this case are AT LEAST equally "sketchy".


If we keep letting them under-value our lives, then our sisters shall continue to receive injustice......or/and die.

The fact he was wearing a swastika and had a criminal record does not, in and of itself, have any relevance to what did or didn't happen in this particular event. It is not proof that he initiated the violent conflict.

Update: I went through more of the court documents to try and find out what happened, so much of the previous portion of this post is no longer relevant and I've removed it.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/356409/mcdonald-chrishaun-11-16485-5-2-12-plea.pdf

It lists out in the above link her version of what happened in her entering a plea of guilty.

So the real question is, why did she plea guilty? That's really the big question mark, if she had a good and solid case of self defense, why didn't her lawyers recommend going to trial.

These are things we just don't know, I wish we did, and I wish the best for Cece McDonald, but there's just not enough information to really take action, she pleaded guilty, maybe she shouldn't have, but she did.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Minnesota self defense law states what pretty much amounts to a duty to retreat, that she is in violation in not attempting to escape from the situation and resorting first to using a weapon in self defense.

Now I don't agree with the law in that regard, if her version of events are accurate, then I agree, morally she did nothing wrong, and the law needs to be changed (and indeed my research indicates it may well be changed soon). But in a technical legal sense, she's not innocent, under the law at the time of the offense. Which I suspect is likely why her lawyers suggested she enter a plea of guilty.

None of this supports or defends her placement in a male prison, and in that I completely agree it's unacceptable.

If it were up to me, and if her version of events are truthful, I'd release her, but it's not up to me, and the law says what it says, in terms of her guilt it's nothing to do with her being transgender or not. The real injustice to focus on is her inmate housing, if you want to argue self defense law then that's not transgender specific.

Unfortunately all of this gets into the messy world of politics, and unfortunately for people with views such as mine, there's little compromise. Those on the left tend to disagree with my strong views on the rights to self defense (and in my view she had a right to potentially lethal self defense in the situation described), those on the right would disagree with my views on a great many other issues. In the end it's the whole system at fault. And sadly that won't be changed any time soon because the majority of people have comfortable lives under the system as it exists and will defend it.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 11, 2012, 03:20:04 AM
I'm sorry but I can't take a side without knowing the facts. I don't know the facts in this case, the facts in this case likely can't be known with any certainty except maybe by those in the court proceedings. You may very well be right, in fact on the balance of evidence, I think it's more likely she was acting in legitimate self defense than any other explanation.

But I personally don't support taking action on her behalf when we can't know the full story. I won't defend someone just because they're also transgender.

This is what it says on the cece blog supporting her case.

Now I don't know what "told them that her crew would not tolerate hate speech" actually means, for all I know her group were the first to threaten violence.

It also doesn't say exactly how it came to be that this man was stabbed.

The fact he was wearing a swastika and had a criminal record does not, in and of itself, have any relevance to what did or didn't happen in this particular event. It is not proof that he initiated the violent conflict.

There's just not much information to go on, you're probably right that it was self defense, and I'm sure you're right that the justice system has mishandled her case and in that regard I agree people should speak out.

But we shouldn't claim total innocence of the original crime when we don't have enough information to actually determine that.

Update: So I looked up some more of the court documents...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/356409/mcdonald-chrishaun-11-16485-5-2-12-plea.pdf

It lists out in the above link her version of what happened in her entering a plea of guilty.

So the real question is, why did she plea guilty? That's really the big question mark, if she had a good and solid case of self defense, why didn't her lawyers recommend going to trial.

These are things we just don't know, I wish we did, and I wish the best for Cece McDonald, but there's just not enough information to really take action, she pleaded guilty, maybe she shouldn't have, but she did.

In all likelihood she was bullied into the plea.   We know or can guess how the system operates for someone like Cece.

The tattoo and the criminal  record would have a bearing on this umm, person's general character which I think should have been relevant.  *Sigh*, is it me?  Does one really have to be a member of one the groups that is on the IMMEDIATE hate list of these kind of individuals to be angry and offended by this whole  case?

It's funny; I've always been one of last people to naturally or over-sympathize with someone because they are like me.   Ask my family and friends.  However, I think that anyone believing that CeCe received justice, or that she would even be in prison if she weren't transgendered and black, is seriously kidding themselves.

I'm was never implying that everyone personally needed to get involved.   If you want to intellectualize and over objectify her story that's fine too.  Have a good day.

Quote from: patstar on July 11, 2012, 04:44:56 AM
In all likelihood she was bullied into the plea.   We know or can guess how the system operates for someone like Cece.

The tattoo and the criminal  record would have a bearing on this umm, person's general character which I think should have been relevant.  *Sigh*, is it me?  Does one really have to be a member of one the groups that is on the IMMEDIATE hate list of these kind of individuals to be angry and offended by this whole  case?

It's funny; I've always been one of last people to naturally or over-sympathize with someone because they are like me.   Ask my family and friends.  However, I think that anyone believing that CeCe received justice, or that she would even be in prison if she weren't transgendered and black, is seriously kidding themselves.

I'm was never implying that everyone personally needed to get involved.   If you want to intellectualize and over objectify her story that's fine too.  Have a good day.

Well I'm sorry that bringing intelligent thought and independent review into this case is contradicting your emotionally charged baseless statements.

Why would her attorneys bully her into accepting a plea? What have they to gain?

As I said before, under the law, if it happened the way she said it did, she is guilty, her being transgender or black is irrelevant. I don't AGREE with the law in this regard, but it says what it says.

In Minnesota the law says you have a duty to retreat, she in her own words of what happened did not do that.

And you can't make the argument that the lack of evidence that she was bullied or treated unfairly is proof that she was, that's unfalsifiable (it's like saying that not being able to prove god doesn't exist proves god does).

Also his character is irrelevant, you don't judge a case by if you like the parties involved or not, you judge them by what actually happened. And in what actually happened, his tattoo's and history have no place but to bias the jury to ignore the reality of the situation, which is likely why it was not admitted.

Why are you getting angry with me? Ultimately I'm on your side I'm just less emotional and have a desire to know the truth and the facts, I don't think she should be in prison, I don't think the law should say what it does. But I'm not going to play the race card or the gender card or make arguments I can't in any way back up.

But sure, whatever, make me the enemy, lack of coherent argument is exactly why people like me don't take people like you very seriously.