Smart people (unless they are suffering from bulemia) do not purge so that they can look good.

"My first response was to say that this seems like a false dichotomy, to me." It is not a false dichotomy because you are not forced to choose between the two. You can be both if you want. In fact, in the eyes of my lover, I am both.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 05, 2012, 10:50:54 PM
"My first response was to say that this seems like a false dichotomy, to me." It is not a false dichotomy because you are not forced to choose between the two. You can be both if you want.

I've had to think about this one before forming a reply.

If it's not a false dichotomy because I am not forced to choose, then who is being forced to choose? What puts me in a place where I don't have to choose?

It looks like a false dilemma to me because you've set up the subject line that way. Now, if you had said "and/or" or if you had added "something else" to the mix, then you would open it up a little.

It isn't necessarily a false dilemma for your readers, however, since they can choose to combine your categories or ignore them and invent their own--or go entirely category-less.

A false choice dichotomy is a logical fallacy that is defined by stating that there are only two alternatives, period. In other words, if someone stated that we must either fund education or end the War in Afghanistan, that would be a false choice fallacy. Implicit in my question is what is more important to you: becoming a heteronormative "sex object" or "saving the world?" If anything, this was a rhetorical question as I thought everyone would choose to save the world. But I was proven wrong right out of the gate.

It obviously is also a very biased question as I define a real woman as someone who does not want to be a sex object and would want to "save the world." Frankly, I was just responding to the extreme amount of narcissism on these threads and suggesting there is more to being a woman than becoming a sex object.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 09, 2012, 07:26:24 PM
It obviously is also a very biased question as I define a real woman as someone who does not want to be a sex object and would want to "save the world." Frankly, I was just responding to the extreme amount of narcissism on these threads and suggesting there is more to being a woman than becoming a sex object.

Your other bias is a riot too--the one where you assume that women who focus heavily on their appearance just want to be sex objects. Maybe that one comes from how you look at women. And really it's the basis for the classic "you dress slutty and you're asking for rape."

I'm tired of people acting like beauty is an illegitimate passion. Saving the world is great, but you're hardly barking up every non-world-saver's tree here  It's easy to hate on a "shallow" girl, but a lot of the time the most shallow person is the one doing the hating.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 09, 2012, 07:26:24 PM
Implicit in my question is what is more important to you: becoming a heteronormative "sex object" or "saving the world?" If anything, this was a rhetorical question as I thought everyone would choose to save the world. But I was proven wrong right out of the gate.

Hey, where did I say I wanted to become a heteronormative sex object?

Quote from: pretty on July 10, 2012, 04:35:47 AM
Your other bias is a riot too--the one where you assume that women who focus heavily on their appearance just want to be sex objects. Maybe that one comes from how you look at women. And really it's the basis for the classic "you dress slutty and you're asking for rape."

I'm tired of people acting like beauty is an illegitimate passion. Saving the world is great, but you're hardly barking up every non-world-saver's tree here  It's easy to hate on a "shallow" girl, but a lot of the time the most shallow person is the one doing the hating.

You know it is quite easy to make an argument without resorting to an ad hominem attack and/or misstating someone's position. Neither Pink nor I said or implied that women who focus on appearance want to be sex objects. Furthermore, if someone asks "do you want to be a sex object or save the world," you gotta assume the question is a bit tongue in cheek.  In reality, a lot of beautiful women also are heavily involved in social caused. On the other hand, there is a point to be made: some of the more intense narcissism displayed on these threads is a bit misguided and, at worst, harmful and that there is more to being in a woman than asking "Mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all?" (Of course, the answer to that is I am as my own lover says she only loves me for my body and calls me her "girl toy" and quite frankly, I kinda like it.  )

The pursuit of beauty is not illegitimate unless it reaches the point of bulimia or when it supersedes everything else.

Finally, when you accuse someone who questions extreme pursuits of beauty of being a misogynistic hater, you really have to ask yourself who is the one who is the hater.
Here is another video on beauty. I have to admit I kinda like this makeover:

dove evolution

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 09, 2012, 07:26:24 PM
It obviously is also a very biased question as I define a real woman as someone who does not want to be a sex object and would want to "save the world." Frankly, I was just responding to the extreme amount of narcissism on these threads and suggesting there is more to being a woman than becoming a sex object.

Perhaps a little more clarity at the outset would have helped, then.

I have no desire to "save the world." I do try to be the best possible person I can be.

I'm interested what you mean by "the extreme amount of narcissism," as that sounds a lot like an attack, to me. Was the purpose of this thread to show your contempt? I ask this not as a rhetorical question, but out of honest curiosity.

The first time I looked in a mirror and actually liked what I saw was shortly after my 42nd birthday. Since then, I have shared the images that have given me joy on Facebook, Photobucket, and linked to some of them here. If that is narcissism to you, then it is. To me, it's merely sharing my joy. I never really thought anything about my appearance before the age of 12. So, after 30 years of being dissatisfied with my appearance I finally like what I see. That gives me joy. I chose to share that joy. That was my only intention. Is that narcissistic?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 10, 2012, 08:53:48 AM
Here is another video on beauty. I have to admit I kinda like this makeover:

I love watching a beauty products producer marketing "natural" as a look. They embrace a level of cynicism that I can only aspire to.

Quote from: Kadri on July 03, 2012, 06:39:18 PM
I really need to do is work out how to transfer the skill set I acquired to some other occupation. I wrote on the very early history of the ancestors of the Thai and Lao people who lived in southern China about 1500 years ago. One useful outcome I gained from this was being able to read Chinese quite quickly,

If you read Chinese fluently, plus understanding the culture nuances of that group, plus having an analytical mind ca land you a job with one of the three letter agencies


[/quote] It is interesting how many trans women from more privileged backgrounds end up working in IT. I think some of it may be due to the fact that some of us hide out amongst the geeky group at school and have more contact with computers earlier on. The whole thing passed me by some time in the late 80's when our home computer broke.... I don't even know how to use an iPhone!
[/quote]

I come from a long line of privilege scholars, but I earned my living 9snce a young age) and my degrees on my own. While I understand IT better than the average Jane, my expertise is in the biomedical field.

I also depart from the norm by having been a very popular jock, and the fact that I never hided my femaleness (to the dismay or my parents).

I read somewhere that a great proportion of GID folks are overachievers in what ever field they choose to be.

In any case, I laud you in your achievements; the success of any GID fellow is cause for celebration.. You honor us.

Quote from: peky on July 10, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
If you read Chinese fluently, plus understanding the culture nuances of that group, plus having an analytical mind ca land you a job with one of the three letter agencies....

.....In any case, I laud you in your achievements; the success of any GID fellow is cause for celebration.. You honor us.

Wow, thanks very much Peky! I went full-time a week before I handed my thesis in, so it felt like two big successes in one week. 

When you say three letter agencies you mean CIA etc? I'm sure I could do jobs like that if I held the right passport, but unfortunately I am a citizen of New Zealand, a country that has really started to skimp on its public service in the last few years, So I have to look for jobs in the private sector instead.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 09, 2012, 07:26:24 PM
It obviously is also a very biased question as I define a real woman as someone who does not want to be a sex object and would want to "save the world."

Which brings us to definitional fallacies...

And, frankly, I'm not sure what your narcissism comment is getting at. This is a support site for a demographic that is traditionally disrespected, vilified, disinherited, physically abused, and even killed just for existing and for looking obviously trans. Many of us come here to talk about personal milestones (lots of cis people don't "get it"), receive strokes from others (some folks can't get support anywhere else), and solicit advice about blending in (for those who want that sort of thing). If you have other goals, fine. But that doesn't mean you have to judge other people's reasons for being here.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 10, 2012, 08:53:48 AM
Furthermore, if someone asks "do you want to be a sex object or save the world," you gotta assume the question is a bit tongue in cheek. 

No, I don't. I've talked to more than one individual (all women with views they labeled as "feminist") who see the world in pretty black and white terms and who feel that more than a cursory focus on appearance is akin to joining the Dark Side of the Force. Believe me, they were not kidding.

Quote from: Arch on July 11, 2012, 08:14:52 PM
No, I don't. I've talked to more than one individual (all women with views they labeled as "feminist") who see the world in pretty black and white terms and who feel that more than a cursory focus on appearance is akin to joining the Dark Side of the Force. Believe me, they were not kidding.

Context is everything. I posted this with a link to the "stupid girls video." As far as the narcissism goes, there is a lot of it but I see most of it as the same type of normal narcissism that occurs during puberty not bordering on NPD.

As far as the argument that stating the obvious--that there is a great deal of narcissism on these boards--is an attack, that is nonsense. It would only be an attack if I accused a specific person of being narcissistic. That there is a lot of narcissism on these boards is merely an observation, and an accurate one.

The accuracy of an observation depends on one's point of view.

A support site is no place to be calling anyone names, and saying there is a lot of narcissism here IS an attack. An attack with a broad brush against a lot of people. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 12, 2012, 05:57:07 PM
A support site is no place to be calling anyone names, and saying there is a lot of narcissism here IS an attack. An attack with a broad brush against a lot of people. Hugs, Devlyn

Saying that there is a lot of narcissism on these boards is not name calling no matter how you try to parse it.   I explained that IMNSHO it was "normal" narcissism very similar to what most normal healthy adolescents go through. Folks who are transitioning post-puberty are, in a sense, going through another adolescence so this is normal. Again, the only serious point is that there is more to being a women than having a pretty face and an hourglass figure. OTOH  If you have read my posts, you would surely be saying I was the pot calling the kettle black (except that I never claimed that I was not narcissistic) as I have had around $80,000 in surgeries so that I could like what I see in the mirror!

I have read your posts, I viewed your profile before your first post. As for the pot calling the kettle black, you're wrong about me. I don't come here to call anyone anything, or compare them to others. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 12, 2012, 06:34:31 PM
I have read your posts, I viewed your profile before your first post. As for the pot calling the kettle black, you're wrong about me. I don't come here to call anyone anything, or compare them to others. Hugs, Devlyn

In all due respect, you have a rather odd communication style for someone tasked to be a moderator. You accuse me of making an attack. I reply and admit I am somewhat of a hypocrite which was a general statement not directed at you personally and you say I am wrong about you when I did not make any judgement concerning you in the first place. That is, I merely stated one could accuse me of "being a pot calling a kettle black" if one wanted to. I don't know anything about you except that you are a moderator and a cross dresser.

Thank you for noticing my odd communications style. I believe most of the members here understand me. Hugs, Devlyn