Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone,  I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen.  Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound?  Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor?  Just how much will I really change?

I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's? I was born transsexual and my brain is and always has been clearly wired female which is why I couldn't adapt to being male throughout my life. The addition of estrogen didn't change my already female brain.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's?

Mucho belly button gazing?   

Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 19, 2012, 05:24:19 PM
Mucho belly button gazing?   

Explain?

  Hmm.  Contemplating your belly buttons? 
  Okay, back on subject.  There are some rewiring, Um, no let's say reswitching of certain parts of your brain due to the estrogen receptors being turned on.  If my brain was rewired, it would've possibly cured my dyslexia.  Nope, still there.  It has a lot about how you felt when you start HRT.  The attitude you have also will determine how much more feminine in spirit you'll become.  I was a passive male before, now I'm a more confrontational tomboy.  I still do the same things I did before, but with more determination. 
  Joelene

My "rewiring" happened several months prior to HRT. I suspect it was a combination of previous pyschic/emotional trauma and an extreme stress* reaction.


*"Stress" is a HUGE understatement. What I was experiencing at the time was beyond stress, but there's no word for it. 24/7 suicide ideations, urges, and attempts. Severe bodily pain, related to the 'stress', overwhelming feelings along the entire 4-axis spectrum...in short, I was in HELL.

One night I felt odd...and my wife asked, "In what way?" I told her, "I feel like my brain is being re-wired...re-wired to be female." She said, "I know."

Ever since then, I made deliberate efforts to transition, with *no* regrets, *no* thoughts of de-transitioning.

And life is good. My own personal HELL has either withdrawn, or I advanced out of it.  (There's an old saying..."If you find yourself in hell...KEEP MOVING!")

HRT simply reinforced where I already was. To paraphrase an old TV show...

QuoteWikipedia"There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to — The Outer Limits.
— Opening narration, The Control Voice, 1960s"

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's? I was born transsexual and my brain is and always has been clearly wired female which is why I couldn't adapt to being male throughout my life. The addition of estrogen didn't change my already female brain.

The common--and somewhat biased, imho--view is that a TS is born that way. I believe that everyone has male and female parts in the brain, just like (nearly) everyone has male and female parts on the body.

The penis is really just an extra-large clit, the scrotum is really just the vulva, the testes are really the ovaries, etc.

All parts are present in the early development of the fetus, and it's only the introduction of large amounts of hormones that cause these parts to either ascend or descend (ovaries -v- testes), enlarge or remain (penis -v- clit), or development of mammary glands (which both M and F's have; but only estrogen causes these glands to actually produce milk).

It is reasonable to think that the mind/brain symbiosis have both "male" and "female" elements, it's just a combination of nature (hormones) and nurture (social development) which "create" a certain type of brain. Obviously the basic structure would be there based on hormones, but the "wiring" of the brain is well-known to be influenced strongly by social indoctrination (i.e., learning).

So, a TS could sense "being a woman" from his/her earliest memories, but it is also possible--indeed, far more likely--that any cross-gender tendencies would be stifled as part of any reasonably strict society. These induced suppressions could be released at some point in the future (due to any number of reasons, traumas being only one) and the person would perceive themselves as "becoming" transexual at that point in time.

But, if the prevailing custom is "Thou must be trans from birth, or thou art not trans", then a later-in-life TS would have to fabricate an "I remember being trans when I was 7 years old" story.

Better to have the truth of each transition; from these we can gain actual knowledge, not dogma.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Explain?

Oh, sorry.  I didn't mean anything mean by that.  I just think that sometimes we all think too hard about all of this.  Relative to your statement that you don't understand some of the questions that have been coming up here in the forums... sometimes it feels to me as though we (gender variant folks) get ourselves caught up and wound up about things that we can't do anything about.  Sometimes it's nice to allow the experience of transitioning to wash over us  so that we can simply savor it rather than working so hard to explain and quantify it.

Sorry to interrupt.

Peace.

Everybody is a little different.  I have always loved marzipan and candied citrus peel.  I know guys who LOVE chocolate.  Personally my chocolate experience is that I go through periods where I like it and periods where it could easily not even exist.  Lately I have been into chocolate, my theory was I am into it right now because I am unemployed and not getting enough exercise. 

People tend to crave chocolate when they are low in magnesium.  When I was working my diet was much more fun and included a lot more fish and seaweed.  Since being unemployed my diet has consisted of peanut butter and frozen burritos and I am probably craving chocolate because of a diet lower in magnesium since I am not getting ready to have a period any time soon.  But I suspect it has more to do with having less social interaction and less of a sense of purpose.  I personally believe that people use chocolate to replace social interaction, friendship, love, etc.

My sense of smell grew more acute after transition.

I started dreaming in colors.

I was always different (a product of being born with GID) but I care about children more than before.

My nipples became less sensitive after transition.

For a while I loved the smell of certain men, I have recently noticed that some older people have a bitter smell that I can't get away from quick enough.

But what I have noticed most about myself is that just when I think I have myself pegged I surprise myself which may relate to that old saying that it is a woman's prerogative to change her mind.

For me transition was also (for lack of a better word) a "spiritual" experience.  Because I had lived with blinders on and had lived in a rut between my front door and work for so long.  I had repressed myself with my religious beliefs as a way to keep me solidly in that rut.  Also my belief that I had to be a certain way for everyone else.  I had to live up to everyone's expectations of me, I had to live to avoid their criticisms.

So when I did finally break out of that rut and begin exploring transition I began driving to a big city far away for support meetings and simply driving out of town was a huge change and a major experience for me.  I wasn't used to the big city.  I met people, fell in love with someone (a totally new experience) and it was like the world was getting bigger and brighter.  Just the experience of changing my life was having profound changes on myself, my life, my goals, wants, desires.  My perception of "the world".  The world was definitely growing.   when I boarded an airplane and flew to Thailand the world got even larger and places I might have casually heard mentioned in the past became real.  Japan, Thailand...  Having those experiences changed me, changed my perception of the world.

Transition has changed me on a lot of levels, in a lot of ways.  It wasn't just HRT, it was changing my routine and doing things I might never have done otherwise.  something as simple as standing up for myself.

I do think that in a way I have a disadvantage when it comes to men.  There was a time when I believed I knew all the facts and I had that level of confidence that many men have, a sense of confidence that is strengthened (often times) with ignorance.  I think that many of us tend to think of ourselves as lesbians because dealing with men is that much harder when you have a past like we tend to do.  I suppose it depends what you do with it, you could use it to your advantage.  Mostly I find that when I immerse myself into a situation (instead of sitting behind a computer screen, typing words into a support website) that life becomes a lot more spontaneous and I begin to surprise myself and that is what is lacking in my life right now.

Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 19, 2012, 08:19:21 PM
Oh, sorry.  I didn't mean anything mean by that.  I just think that sometimes we all think too hard about all of this.  Relative to your statement that you don't understand some of the questions that have been coming up here in the forums... sometimes it feels to me as though we (gender variant folks) get ourselves caught up and wound up about things that we can't do anything about.  Sometimes it's nice to allow the experience of transitioning to wash over us  so that we can simply savor it rather than working so hard to explain and quantify it.

Sorry to interrupt.

Peace.

My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.

I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 04:37:06 AM
My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.

I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the biochemical "rewiring" that takes place in the brain when on HRT is in any way what "makes someone's brain female". They're just saying that it has a measurable effect on the brain, and discussing what (if any) difference people have experienced as a result of that.

I get that this topic is alien to you because you yourself have not experienced any noticeable difference since being on HRT, but please be open to the possibility that other people have experienced things differently.

Things will change profoundly, but you won't notice the change because it will be gradual. Should you ever have to revert to a pre HRT state you will very quickly realise how much you've changed.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 04:37:06 AM
My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.

I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.

Yeah I don't get it. Not all of us had the convenience of excelling in life as a male and then one day deciding it was time to transition. I think it's offensive to say "re-wiring of our brain as female," implying "we" were just totally normal men before with some weird freakish urge to become a woman.

My brain was wired as a female from the beginning...

Quote from: Padma on July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 AMsaying that it has a measurable effect on the brain,

Does it? That's news to me. Who has measured it? 

Quote from: Padma on July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 AM
I get that this topic is alien to you because you yourself have not experienced any noticeable difference since being on HRT, but please be open to the possibility that other people have experienced things differently.

Other people probably notice differences because some are probably standard males who have lived standard male lives? rather than being female with a female brain. I have a female brain which I was born with. I can't re-wire my brain to what I already am. After years on HRT it hasn't affected the way I think or do things. I am exactely the same mentally.

This topic makes no sense to someone like me who is transsexual and suffered from gender dysphoria all their life. I have a female brain in the first place which is why I am transsexual.

Saying that others were standard males with standard male lives is profoundly hurtful.  Transition isn't a contest.  Almost all people are affected by hormones.  Being on estrogen is typically a totally different experience than being on testosterone.  F2Ms can attest to this fact because testosterone is such a powerful hormone.  If you feel, think and experience life exactly the same then something is wrong and you need to see a competent endocrinologist.  This is what people are talking about when they say "rewiring".  They aren't saying they were totally men and then became total women, they are saying what I already know, that being on estrogen changes how you think, feel and experience life.  It would be the same for a woman born female who was put on estrogen blockers and testosterone and then ten years later taken off the testosterone & blockers and given estrogen.  She would think, feel and experience life differently.  Some of us call that "rewiring" and it doesn't make us men who became women.  Also it would take time for her to recover from being put on testosterone and estrogen blockers.  She would notice some things right away and she would notice other things gradually.  I felt an immediate sense of relief when I started HRT but there were other things that I noticed much more gradually.  And I have always been female, it's why I transitioned.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Other people probably notice differences because some are probably standard males who have lived standard male lives? rather than being female with a female brain. I have a female brain which I was born with. I can't re-wire my brain to what I already am. After years on HRT it hasn't affected the way I think or do things. I am exactely the same mentally.

This topic makes no sense to someone like me who is transsexual and suffered from gender dysphoria all their life. I have a female brain in the first place which is why I am transsexual.

I have suffered for GID close 25 years and this topic makes a lot of sense.  Just because it doesn't ring a bell with you doesn't mean everyone else here is some sort of sad "male" who needed a "change." 

What is with the semantics aimed at people?

How hard is it to say, "This was not my experience." without being snotty to folks it does resonate with?

That is supportive like a kick in the teeth and it's pretty disheartening to see the same people being competitively bitter and angry about 90% of the topics started here.

I'm 2 weeks out from starting hrt and actively look for reasonable conversation and folks sharing their experiences on topics like this.  They matter on a support site.  If you can't be supportive and insist on drawing judgmental and condemning distinctions between your experience and everyone else's, please don't share, piss off and keep your angst to yourself. 

-Miki

Quote from: Miki on July 20, 2012, 02:15:32 PM
If you can't be supportive and insist on drawing judgmental and condemning distinctions between your experience and everyone else's, please don't share, piss off and keep your angst to yourself. 

-Miki

+1

Quote from: pretty on July 20, 2012, 12:57:29 PM

Quote from: Padma
saying that it has a measurable effect on the brain,"

Does it? That's news to me. Who has measured it? 

This recent study, for example, seems to show both things to be true at the same time:

i) that the brains of trans women on HRT are more like those of cis women than are those of trans women pre-HRT (using previous studies of trans women on HRT for comparison), and

ii) that the brains of trans women even pre-HRT are already in certain areas much more like those of cis women than those of cis men.

So according to this article, trans women already have more cis-women-like brains to start with, but HRT makes them even more so.

Can we call this a draw now, and just get on with sharing our own personal experiences? Denying the validity of someone else's experience is pointless - and is breaking the site ToS.

Please respect TOS rule #11 and keep the profanity off the site as well. Thank you, Devlyn

Changes, as I remember them, were obviously more noticable in the beginning. How much was placebo and how much was hrt I can't say for sure, but the changes in how I felt and how I behaved were anywhere from subtile to massive. I was talking to an old friend recently and the subject of hrt came up. I mentioned how, even though I didn't really notice it myself at the time, I was basically insane the first year before things settled down. My friend agreed.

Today I don't really notice the changes anymore. I'm too used to them by now. Casually thinking about it I would say I haven't really changed at all, but when I  try to remember the person I once was it becomes more apparent. It is almost as if the old me is the narrative of a fictional character in a  book I once read, or someone I knew that died a long time ago. The old me was a contrived and oppressed person. I am not.

The biggest change is perhaps in how I view myself as a woman. During my transition people would ask questions and I would eagerly explain. I had a whole  shopping list of reasons, facts and arguments for stating my case. I would go to great lengths  making sure there was no doubt I was woman.  Though just like semantic satiation (repeating a word  over and over till it loses it's meaning) it seems that over time all those ideas and arguments about what made me  a woman have lost their meanings as well.

I have two sisters that are roughly 15 years younger than me that I watched grow up. One was  the typical girl with dolls, pink unicorns, makeup etc. and is today a nurse. The other one was all dirt  bikes, cap guns, running around in the forest and is at the moment striving to become a  maintenance worker for exhaust duct systems on the oil rigs in the North sea. So one is the  stereotypical girl, the other is not, I fall somewhere in between.  If I were to ask them what makes them women without  arguing from biology, how would they answer? I don't know, but there is little doubt they are  both women, and both equally so.

Today it is far less important to me to shoehorn myself  into a some female standard that needs to be met (a standard much narrower than one we would ever think to apply to cis-women). Ask me what makes me woman and I can't answer any more than I can answer  what makes my sisters women.  We are what we are because that's what we are.