Basically, I have a lot of questions about which I am and I'm not sure how to tell the difference. What is the difference between an ftm and a butch? I'm not trying to be a smart alec here, I really am unsure beyond that one thinks of themselves as male and transitions and the other thinks of themselves as female and doesn't. How do I know which I am? Is there a difference in how one feels about their body? Hopefully something definable?

Well obviously there is a difference or no one would really transition. I actually think it's a good question because I think there are people in our population who were once butch. And also there are some butches that are VERY threatened by the very idea of ftms, since their reaction is so strong, makes me wonder if they are really trans and fighting it.

One thing I have noticed though is that butches have a love/hate relationship with their female bodies. I have no love for my body. None of the ftms I know at least have a love for their body.

--Jay Jay

I think that with butch, at the end of the day you still want to be a woman, although sometimes it is really hard to be a butch woman. I do think, though, that a lot of butches struggle with their bodies as well. Trying to constantly find that balance between presenting as more masculine, and liking things that are considered to be masculine, along with the sense that they too are women.

I think it's okay to let yourself not be certain, to give yourself time and space to find out who you are, and where that might lead you. Coming from the other direction, I spent a number of years trying to convince myself I was a "gay man" just because I wanted an arena in which I could express my masculinity and my femininity together. I still want that, but I'm clear now that I've been wanting that as a woman.

Just because it seems like the "official options" are limited doesn't mean you have to choose one and stick to it.

Take your time .

Butch women identify themselves as female where transmen do not.

I have lived the life (althought not a productive one) of a butch woman and I still felt like something was missing.  Before I knew about being transgendered being butch was the closest thing I could identify with.  What helped me get through deciding if I was butch or a transman was looking back in my younger days before I knew what either were.  As a child I grew up saying "I wish I was a boy." never "I wish I was a butch woman."

So yeah the struggles may be similar to some degree but at the end if the day butch women tend to identify with their sex assigned at birth while many ftms don't

The term "Butch" itself does not necessarily have a gender assigned to it. A man can be butch, a woman can be butch, etc. just like a man can be feminine, a woman can be feminine, etc. The term "FTM" is generally considered a gender identity, while "Butch" is considered a descriptor of someone's gender behaviors (although it can definitely be a gender identity as well! all depends on the person and how they identify).

In the example you're asking about (Butch vs. FTM) I believe you're referring to the term butch in terms of someone who identifies as female, but considers themselves butch, whereas FTM means that the person identifies as male (and may or may not be butch -- it's not a requirement).

This may not be helpful. But try not to live to a label. They mean nothing. Define yourself in what you are happy with for you.

Most of the labels are given by well meaning (?) people who want to be able to put groups into boxes.  I'm not happy with that. I think when you get to know large group of people they are indeed very diverse; even so called normal people vary a lot.  That is what defines normal; a large variation in what we are, all of which are normal.

I've always known it as: Butch = happy in female body with masculine qualities.
FTM = Not happy in female body and wanting to tradition to a male one.

As for knowing what one you are, it's really up to you, there is not set questionnaire to fill out to see if you are FTM. Take your time to figure out who you are and live your life how it will make you happy, there is no pressure to fit in any category or define yourself by any affiliation to ether Butch or FTM. Look at how you live your life and how your body makes you happy or how it does not. How does it effect your state of wellbeing?

Also always remember there are people on here to talk to if you need it

I suppose it's quite hard to answer because FTM's don't know what it feels like to be a butch woman, and butch women don't know what it feels like to be FTM, one group can't feel what the other does.  I think that butch people can probably feel some level of discomfort with their bodies, but not to the degree that we do, and they probably don't get bothered by being called "she" or "ma'am" or things like that because they're not men.

I dont know much about it but I always thought simple of it as:

Ftm = to be a boy, but not nessesarry being boyish
butch not to be a boy, but being boyish

I am following someone called SLO Fox on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox
I think she (does identifies as she and uses her girl name) shows some of the issues faced by butches. But she also does seem to have gender identity issues of some kind. I think she does a good job discussing these and does interesting videos.

(Yes, I do spend too much time on youtube. )

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 03:06:05 AM
One thing I have noticed though is that butches have a love/hate relationship with their female bodies.

Apparently, some butches don't feel this way about their bodies...

Quote from: Arch on July 28, 2012, 01:36:43 PM
Apparently, some butches don't feel this way about their bodies...

You're right. I was thinking of those with some degree of dysphoria.

--Jay Jay

Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.

Trans men identify as men. They present and identify themselves as male but do not necessarily identify themselves as masculine. Nearly all (I really don't want to say all due to the fact that there might be somebody who doesn't fit this) have discomfort int heir own skin, and would like to socialize as male.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 02:19:49 PM
You're right. I was thinking of those with some degree of dysphoria.

It's not like I'm a fount of lesbian knowledge, of course.

I really like what Natkat said. Seemed pretty insightful, as a sort of general guideline.

When I went back into the closet, I tried not to define myself at all--I stopped reading and thinking about transsexuality. But I still had the male name and the male presentation and my past identification as trans. I still introduced myself to students as "Mr." A few called me "he" in evals, and one or two asked what pronoun I preferred. Looking back, I guess it was a pretty surreal way to live.

At a certain point, I wanted to do a certain activity that involved a personal statement, and I identified myself as a masculine woman. I didn't know what else to do because I was in such denial. But it felt horrible to label myself that way, and I blocked it out until I stumbled across the personal statement years later. I had literally no memory of writing it and was aghast.

One of my defining moments came when I was 44 and staring into the mirror in the women's bathroom across from my office. I saw a hair that might have been gray or really really blond, and I thought, "Oh, my god, I'm going to die a woman."

I buried the thought for a few more years while my dysphoria got worse and worse. But that moment--the true and concrete realization that if I continued to do nothing, I would be living as a woman for the rest of my existence--filled me with such horror. Not because people tend to respect women less or because women tend to earn less or any of that--it was just the BEINGNESS that I couldn't deal with. That's not who I am, that's not who I am. And yet I saw a woman staring back at me in the mirror. I venture to guess that such weirdly Kurtzian moments do not happen to butch women.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 28, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.

I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.

Quote from: Icarus389 on July 28, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.

SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 11:47:00 PM
SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.

--Jay Jay

My quote and question were mainly directed at Nygeel since he knows a butch woman who has had top surgery, but I'll have to check out SLO Fox's videos to see if it's a similar circumstance. Thanks Jay Jay.

Quote from: Icarus389 on July 28, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.

She lives as a woman as far as I know. Had top surgery in maybe 2004. I haven't spoken to her in a while.

My therapist says he had a butch client who had top surgery and who went on hormones for a few months and then stopped. I mean, that was the original plan. She only wanted some vocal changes, I guess.