Quote from: Bexi on July 30, 2012, 07:46:08 AM
Or better, didn't say anything and stared intently into their eyes with a slightly tilted head!
x

BINGO! But add in a sly smile and tapping my chin thoughtfully with one of my red fingernails... MWUHAHAHAH!

I'm dead serious about this one. The LDS/Mormon church leadership (at the top levels) told me that it was a

"sin next only to murder."

I'm not kidding. It's worse than anything else except murder. I tell you, I didn't feel very good on that day. That means that I was worse than child molestors, theives, corrupt politicians... yeah... everything except those who commit murder.

Quote from: MadelineB on July 31, 2012, 01:51:05 AM
He sounded really worried about what happens to penises people don't want. LOL.

Even now, I'm involved in fundraising to set up a shelter .
Once medicine catches up, we could run an adoption service for FTMs...

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 31, 2012, 02:08:23 AM
I'm dead serious about this one. The LDS/Mormon church leadership (at the top levels) told me that it was a

"sin next only to murder."

I'm not kidding. It's worse than anything else except murder. I tell you, I didn't feel very good on that day. That means that I was worse than child molestors, theives, corrupt politicians... yeah... everything except those who commit murder.

***TRIGGER WARNING: LDS REFERENCES***
I'm sorry you went through that Cindy. Sounds like we might have some common experiences. I think it was just a few months before the whole "excommunicate an intellectual feminist" craze started (late 80's?) in the church I grew up in, that I had the word from one of the GA's in a "priesthood only" meeting I was in that for a "male priesthood holder" to undergo surgery to "become a woman" was considered to be equivalent to the "sin against the holy ghost" and was unforgiveable in this life and would probably consign one to "outer darkness" in the next, but he couldn't say for sure about the outer darkness part since that wasn't "for any man to know".

Whereas there was a procedure in place at that time where a convicted murderer could finish out their sentence and then be ok'ed for re-baptism but it required an interview with a member of the first presidency, followed by an exception letter signed by the POTC, there was no POTC exception for transgender women who underwent SRS. It is possible that has changed in the years since - I would hope so. The requirements were less stringent than murder for other crimes like rape and molestation; those were subject to local church authorities. My take away from the GA's talk (I was still in the gold plated closet at the time) was that I wold be worse than any murderer if I followed through with the dream of my heart.

I've been really noticing lately how the chief dose of transphobic bile in the world seems to be reserved for MTFs - it does seem like these transphobes just can't deal with "men not wanting to be men", but don't much care about women in comparison (in much the same way as with gay vs. lesbian issues). I wonder why that is.

I'm curious to know whether the LDS has a similar position on the "evilness" of FTM transition?

Yes, Madeline,

I got much of that in my excommunication letteer. And let us not forget the king in the Book of Mormon was forgiven for going to war and murdering who knows how many. I suppose that might be a church justification for a future president taking on Iran?

You remember more than I wanted to recall. Oh it was a tough time for me. They literally followed me everywhere I went. They beat me down mentally, cut me off, and then wouldn't leave me alone for years as they tried to get me to come back. Go figure. They told me I was well-loved. Hey, you can kill someone with love like that!

I do miss the social aspects... sort of. They don't do social things any more. It's just a block of indoctrination every Sunday. Whatever happened to the dances, mutual, roadshows, and pot luck dinners? I think that I ultimately would have divorced and left the church even if I hadn't done the transition thing. I went on a mission and everything else, but I either had to leave or do something less satisfactory. I truly was a cult member.

Quote from: Padma on July 31, 2012, 03:32:56 AM
I've been really noticing lately how the chief dose of transphobic bile in the world seems to be reserved for MTFs - it does seem like these transphobes just can't deal with "men not wanting to be men", but don't much care about women in comparison (in much the same way as with gay vs. lesbian issues). I wonder why that is.

I think that's mostly because MTFs have been visible and FTMs haven't. You should hear the things I've heard about FTMs in the past couple of years, especially since Chaz Bono came out. Fortunately, Thomas Beatie hasn't been as visible.

Quote from: Padma on July 31, 2012, 03:32:56 AM
I've been really noticing lately how the chief dose of transphobic bile in the world seems to be reserved for MTFs - it does seem like these transphobes just can't deal with "men not wanting to be men", but don't much care about women in comparison (in much the same way as with gay vs. lesbian issues). I wonder why that is.

I'm curious to know whether the LDS has a similar position on the "evilness" of FTM transition?

I have an aunt who could very well be such a person. I truly don't know if she could be lesbian or otherwise. She dresses and cuts her hair in a very masculine way. But she is very loyal to her beliefs and has not strayed. So in that respect, I see nothing remarkable. But I would suspect that the church would excommunicate anyone who goes all the way.

I was exed after I had my ears pierced and started using the women's restroom on an unused floor in our office building (long story.. which I've told a million times here). I don't think that they'd do anything to an FTM having chest surgery. I think that an FTM would need to have the bottom surgery as well before excommunication.

Arch, I'm glad that Chaz came out. He's brought the public's attention to us and as THEY say: Any publicity is good publicity.

Thanks for sharing Cindi. I hope I didn't re-traumatize you. People who haven't been acculturated don't understand how painful it can be to leave even when you know it's the right thing to do.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 31, 2012, 03:38:01 AM
Yes, Madeline,
I got much of that in my excommunication letter.

I haven't got mine yet, but I expect it will be a scarlet 'T'.

Quote...a future president

Shudder.

QuoteThey beat me down mentally, cut me off, and then wouldn't leave me alone for years as they tried to get me to come back. Go figure. They told me I was well-loved. Hey, you can kill someone with love like that!

Too true. One of my mission companions suicided a few years after we got back to Utah; he got a lot of that kind of love I'm afraid. His family covered everything up, one of those families who still has the hand carts they came in on. I had always believed he was gay or possibly transgender but it wasn't something one talked about, and then it was too late.

QuoteI do miss the social aspects... sort of. They don't do social things any more. It's just a block of indoctrination every Sunday. Whatever happened to the dances, mutual, roadshows, and pot luck dinners?

If I recall, those went away as part of the same process that drove out almost all female influences in the running of the church, and with the subsequent cracking down on gay people, feminists, and intellectuals. Good old "correlation".
One of the things that kept it lively back in the day, was that it was a fully formed alternative culture, with much of the day to day life run by an unofficial matriarchy that was a lot more fun than the "brethren". When it went corporate and legalistic under the direction of former business executives, marketing executives, bankers, and the occasional court justice, it lost a lot of the old chaotic fun.

QuoteI think that I ultimately would have divorced and left the church even if I hadn't done the transition thing. I went on a mission and everything else, but I either had to leave or do something less satisfactory. I truly was a cult member.

That's how it happened for me. I knew I was everything they hated (an intellectual, feminist, lesbian female priesthood holder who believes in critical thinking and tolerance towards all) so when they got rid of every one I respected, I left. I was tired of feeling guilty for blowing people's minds and shaking their faith in something I could no longer try to believe in.

Quote from: MadelineB on July 30, 2012, 12:43:55 AM

-

-So how does your wife like being a lesbian?

Perfectly legitimate question. MTF's ID crisis stops during transition wife's ID crisis starts.
-

Quote-Don't you think you are being incredibly selfish?

True, isn't it?

I've only read once about an aging MTF who went into transition after her children were grown up and her wife passed away.

I found it very touching to read about her selfsacrifice not to transition during their marriage for the love of her wife.
She just didn't want cause grief to her wife.

Her wife was aware of her TS feelings during her life.

Quote from: Dahlia on July 31, 2012, 09:03:21 AM
Perfectly legitimate question. MTF's ID crisis stops during transition wife's ID crisis starts.
-

True, isn't it?

I've only read once about an aging MTF who went into transition after her children were grown up and her wife passed away.

I found it very touching to read about her selfsacrifice not to transition during their marriage for the love of her wife.
She just didn't want cause grief to her wife.

Her wife was aware of her TS feelings during her life.

You are way off; I know several. I'm not sure I accept the 'aging' bit. I'm no spring bunny but I don't need the walking frame as yet.

I feel a bit upset about your post. It is VERY misinformed about several highly prominent woman on this site.

Cindy

Quote from: MadelineB on July 31, 2012, 01:56:09 AM
BINGO! But add in a sly smile and tapping my chin thoughtfully with one of my red fingernails... MWUHAHAHAH!

Lmao!

Not many people can pull off an Evil Genius laugh though! I'm afraid i'm going to have to ask for proof...

x

Quote from: Cindy James on July 31, 2012, 11:38:11 AM

You are way off; I know several. I'm not sure I accept the 'aging' bit. I'm no spring bunny but I don't need the walking frame as yet.

Cindy

She was in her 70's when she started her transition after her wife passed away...during a 50+ marriage.

It was an incredible unselfish, selfsacrifising thing to do; not transitioning during her marriage in order not to hurt her wife, who, after all married a man she loved.

And she loved her.

one of my guy friends i came out to, seen me wearing nail polish again, And proceeded to point and say" Oh yeah... I forgot you where a weirdo."
To wich i replied ive always been a weirdo.
It was freindly banter, but if anyone else had said it i would have knocked them out.

Quote from: Anima88 on August 02, 2012, 05:50:08 PM
one of my guy friends i came out to, seen me wearing nail polish again, And proceeded to point and say" Oh yeah... I forgot you where a weirdo."
To wich i replied ive always been a weirdo.
It was freindly banter, but if anyone else had said it i would have knocked them out.

Why be NORMAL?

Everyone thinks I'm too normal until they actually get to know me and then they think I'm not normal.

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 02, 2012, 07:22:32 PM
Everyone thinks I'm too normal until they actually get to know me and then they think I'm not normal.

LOL...there's just no pleasing some people. 

Let's see, things I have been hearing from my family ever since I opened the discussion with them recently:

"Just because you like guy stuff doesn't mean you're a guy."

"You definitely need medical help, but that's not the kind you need."

"I think you're just obsessing over the idea and that's making you think you are that way."

"I believe you truly believe that, but..."

"You know this goes against God."

"Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you get to change it."

"I have saggy skin and stretch marks, but you don't see me getting surgery!  That's just what happens and I have to accept it."   

"How would you feel if I just came up to you one day and said I'm gonna be a man?  You're gonna tell me you wouldn't have a problem with that?"

"If somebody just says 'That's OK, as long as you're happy', then obviously they don't care.  We say these things because we love you."

"You never did anything that made me think you were a guy."

"So what, you like girls now?  Why'd you get married to a guy?"


So on and so forth...

Well, I just heard what my former in-laws think...

Being trans isn't real, it's just a symptom of a "serious mental illness". One is born either male, or female. There is no such thing as cross-gender nonsense.