Not sure to post this in the sexual or in the ftm thread.


but anyway came across the guy "joe Mangina,


never heard of him before today,
he is a gay guy who lived as an mtf as he noticed he wasn't mtf but just was very attractive to having a vegina but still be a man. So in short team he removed the effects he had got being mtf, (I am not sure but I guess like homones and stuff or girl clothes?) and then got back to be a man with an operated man-(ve)gina.
and started to make it some kind of porn team for men with sexual fetish to go have surgery.
(so far of what I know, feel free to write more if you know..)


for me to see its like the opppsite of the she-male thing, I dont mind, whatever people have or do,
if men wants to have veginas they could have them.. (I should really not be the ones to say its wrong, since I am not planning on the surgery myself)


but it bugs me the guy himself seams to claim it to be "real men, with vegina fetish" while transmen (and transwomen) are just fake.. yet it seams like his fetish fit just in the same categori as generall ftm porn.
I read something about he wanted to inspirres other men to have the same surgery if they wanted, and have a group on yahoo (but I dont have yahoo so cant really check)
im kinda curious and
It just leaves alot of question,


first I wonders about if those men are trans or cis?, when there biologically are born cis, and see themself 100% as men but still want a vegina?.. I mean.. ->-bleeped-<-s are seen as transgenders, But even if they only do it for sexual plesures?


but for me a more inportant question is: do they get along with us?
sound ignorant, But I just wondered cause the only responce I heard from those links I found, and for joe himself was very critizied of transgenders, like not to be put in the same categoris, and decribing transmen and women as fake [size=78%].[/size]


in a perfect would we would all get along, But the few info I seen was negative, but it would also be stupid to jugde the whole book on its cover, so I wonder if there a people who knows anyone (friends or whatever) having gotting this surgery done, or wanted to do it?


and 3, if we do go get along, would we have something in common or not?


Alot of questions flowing around,
whats your opinion on the topic?

My opinion on the topic is, I don't understand it.
What are you trying to get at?

Is this some kind of trend? I know there are guys with this desire. However, I haven't gotten the impression that many guys have actually acted on it. It is apparently difficult to get therapists and doctors to support only a partial transition. I'm not sure whether to call it a fetish or a type of ->-bleeped-<-. Maybe it depends on each case. I just posted about one that I saw on another board and he says he has dysphoria about his male genitals.


I wouldn't presume others to be such douches like this guy. One paragraph into his site and he already displays incredible ignorance about trans men. If anything, I would expect them to be a little more educated on trans issues in general and feel a kinship with other trans people. The one I posted about was fascinated with Buck Angel and saw him as a sort of idol that he wanted to be like. He sounded quite sympathetic and more educated about trans issues.


https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,124072.msg971820.html#msg971820

Quote from: dalebert on August 01, 2012, 05:52:10 PM
Is this some kind of trend? I know there are guys with this desire. However, I haven't gotten the impression that many guys have actually acted on it. It is apparently difficult to get therapists and doctors to support only a partial transition. ...

It would be hard to get numbers, but I have seen a good amount of this in the nontrans men's communities. Some guys get castrations and then take T, for instance. Some do act on it (DIY surgery) using some dangerous methods. It's more a fantasy (by the numbers), and a popular one at that.

The current WPATH Standards of Care do allow for someone born male, who identifies as male, yet who is very dysphoric about his body, to move towards this surgery. There was a session at the Fall 2011 WPATH conference in Atlanta about eunuchs.

I think by definition a person who is extremely dysphoric about their body is not "cisssexual," although maybe they might be "cisgender." For me, that's yet another reason why "cis-" language isn't accurate or useful for current conversations about gender.

About Joe in particular? Meh, so what? He spends a lot of time trying to differentiate himself from FTMs, but I read that as his own emotional needs, with a dash of marketing thrown in.

He seems like a very disturbed person.

Quote from: Jaime on August 01, 2012, 10:31:57 PM

He even claims his site is viewable by children and islamics due to the fake genitals rather than real genitals. He comes across as a bit of a nutjob to me.

Ok, but that's just sick!


--Jay Jay

Just for the sake of perspective, I watched his story from a documentary on MSNBC (I think). He transitioned fully for 20 years. At about 40, he felt differently and transitioned back in all ways except his genitals. He was a very beautiful and 100% passable woman during that time. After transitioning back, he could be described as hyper-masculine and clearly works out a LOT, maybe even on steroids. A lot of his behavior seems like coping mechanisms but that's just my take on it.

his website says 'I got my NORMAL MALE LIFE back'  so if thats what he thinks his life should be then obviously he was never transsexual.

he then prattles lots of mysogynist nonsense about the smell of women and MtF vaginas which sounds very much like gayspeak.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 01, 2012, 05:27:34 PM
My opinion on the topic is, I don't understand it.
What are you trying to get at?

the topic is about biologically born men, who identify as male, but who want too/do surgery to make a vegina.


i'm not trying to get at any special points, Just curious on the topic, and I dont know/have much experience with those people, so I guess im just trying to get some knowlegde/perspective of it and ask for what people think of it.
---
Dalebert
I guess it somehow makes sense,
being pre-mtf (selfmade word I just made) and then be a real man with a vegina, must make alot of people to wonder. I think he kinda have to "fight for passing" like many transguys do if that even made sense?


I read your link, I somehow feel sorry for the point that its not much of an option for doing those kind of surgerys unless you want to change gender.


I got the view that we shouldnt force people to a gender they dont like, whatever we force them to stay there biological gender or force them to switch. however it made me think of I saw a man for some years ago,
he was a dragqueen trasvestite or something and hade made brest. He still identified as a man. I guess it might be alittle the same?

Quote from: Jaime on August 01, 2012, 10:31:57 PM
He even claims his site is viewable by children and islamics due to the fake genitals rather than real genitals. He comes across as a bit of a nutjob to me.

kinda wierd decribtions..
I dont understand what islam has to do with it, and for the kids.. well why should it matter if its real or fake,
I dont think its wrong for kids to look at genetalias but that its more right when its fake than not?
I mean its still his genetalia dosent make it more right or wrong..


XD arg!! mind->-bleeped-<-

Quote from: Natkat on August 02, 2012, 06:41:54 AM
[size=78%]I dont understand what islam has to do with it, and for the kids.. well why should it matter if its real or fake, [/size]
I dont think its wrong for kids to look at genetalias but that its more right when its fake than not?
I mean its still his genetalia dosent make it more right or wrong..


XD arg!! mind->-bleeped-<-

I think it's forbidden in Islam to view pornography. So basically he's saying that since they are "fake" they can see it (I haven't seen his but I've seen what mtf SRS looks like and basically it does not look fake).


I agree on kids and actual genitals. I think we are very prudish about this. But I would sort of draw the line on this stuff.


--Jay Jay

for the few pictures I see I dont see much of a diffrence either,
yeah there is few where I could go like "okay I see theres some scars there" but it really not like I normally look that closed up.. if I didnt knew it was Mtf surgery I wouldn't know.

Hum...Gender Fluid Gone Wild!

Quote from: Natkat on August 02, 2012, 06:34:37 AM

the topic is about biologically born men, who identify as male, but who want too/do surgery to make a vegina.


i'm not trying to get at any special points, Just curious on the topic, and I dont know/have much experience with those people, so I guess im just trying to get some knowlegde/perspective of it and ask for what people think of it.

I see how you might want to discuss this, but I fail to see how thise appropriate since this guy is someone who feels the opposite way that we do, as he is a man who wanted a vagina, and borderline mocks ftms for having natal female parts. In my opinion, it could be triggering for someone who is transitioning.

I came across a guy on x-tube who calls himself a nullo.  He identifies as fully male but had his penis and testicles removed.  He says he is not trans and does not want to be a woman.  His body is masculine and his parts do not look feminized at all. (Not that I've seen MTF surgery pictures but from what I read they look pretty darn close to the real thing, if not look just like it).  Not sure how he got surgery; for all I know he had cancer or trauma or a birth defect.
Each to his own.

Quote from: JasonRX on August 02, 2012, 06:54:14 PM
I see how you might want to discuss this, but I fail to see how thise appropriate since this guy is someone who feels the opposite way that we do, as he is a man who wanted a vagina, and borderline mocks ftms for having natal female parts. In my opinion, it could be triggering for someone who is transitioning.

It is triggering, it was for me.  The things he says about FTMs genitals is messed up. (how ours smells like a woman and always will but his never will!) 

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 02, 2012, 11:27:41 PM

It is triggering, it was for me.  The things he says about FTMs genitals is messed up. (how ours smells like a woman and always will but his never will!)

Good to know I'm not alone in feeling this way then. I could not agree more.

Quote from: JasonRX on August 02, 2012, 06:54:14 PM
I see how you might want to discuss this, but I fail to see how thise appropriate since this guy is someone who feels the opposite way that we do, as he is a man who wanted a vagina, and borderline mocks ftms for having natal female parts. In my opinion, it could be triggering for someone who is transitioning.

I don't think I should cencor my topics because they can be triggering for someone.
and honestly I dont think its worse than some of the other threads on susan I have come across.


I do see where you come from, I also got pretty angry by reading his comments, and had to stop because I couldnt really take it. But joe is just one guy, there should be more in same situation. and its not for sure they feel the same, way or are transphobic I havent exactly got bye any others who got as much personaly information as joe, But I seen a few comments about it, from guys, he didnt share his perspective on ftms not being good enough.


I don't want to jugde everyone for being a prick because the only guy I seen so far was, that seams ridiculous.
also part of my reason to put it up, cause Maybe I could get some better perspective or exemples of someone who isnt like that.
--------

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 02, 2012, 11:27:41 PM

It is triggering, it was for me.  The things he says about FTMs genitals is messed up. (how ours smells like a woman and always will but his never will!)

its not true either, Ftms who been on testrostorone for a while, knows they smell diffrent more like a man in general, also downstairs so unless he referns every ftm as being without homones, his statement is false.


(I dont want to think how he got to his conclusion )