I just posted this on another transgendered forum, but it seems pretty inactive there so I'm hoping to get clarification here....

I think I accidentally offended a transwoman who was nice enough to answer my question on Tumblr.    Here is my exact post:
First off, your transition is mind blowing to me. I'm very curious about the hormone treatment, if you don't mind me asking. I'm a biological female, but I'm currently on hormones to correct my facial hair issue. I believe it is due to PCOS. I would also like to develop more feminine attributes in the process, like narrower shoulders and softer facial features. I was wondering what kind of hormones are you using? My gyno put me spironolactone & birth control, so far no results.
This was the beginning of  her response:

let's get this out of the way first: you are a biological cisgender female


I'm really bad with labels and how I label myself, so I was just trying to give her a background of myself before she advised me on hormones. I didn't wanna be arrogant and just say "I'm a female" because I guess that may have been a little broad. ? So I said "biological" because I thought  biological meant what I was assigned with at birth and that's what I identify as. I'm so confused on the terminology.   I'm relatively new to the term cisgender and when I first saw it, I was ok with the meaning but I was under the impression that it was just another way of saying "biological". Everytime I see the word cisgender being used online, it is generally by younger people. I feel so out of the loop.  How did cisgenders identify themselves before that word came to exist? I apologize if my using "biological" offended members here and the community. I'm apart of the lgbt community and the last thing I wanna do is cause more division.

Thanks

First off, welcome to the site.

Saying that you're a "biological female" is like saying that you are a living organism. So are trans people! (Biological, that is.)

"Cis" is basically the opposite of "trans." If you were assigned female at birth and you identify as female, then you can be called a cisgender woman.

Thank you     The word just threw me off because labels confuse me. 

Another advantage of using cis- and trans- is that it doesn't single out trans people as being the ones who need a label. We're less common, not less normal .

I wonder if the woman who replied to you was just clarifying that you're not asking about hormones as someone who identifies as transgender, insofar as you're a woman who's looking to "feminise" more, if I understood you correctly?

 To add, just saying, "I'm a female" may cause the trans listener to infer that you believe that, unlike you, she is not female - depending on how defensive the person is, of course. Some may appreciate a "too" following a statement of your femaleness, while others might find it patronizing. However, I'm sure most mature people would recognize that you're just trying to make them feel better with that word; if not, then it's a shame that they  are the way they are.


It's an important note that the trans community, because of how it is often mistreated, finds ways for various addresses to be seen as hostile simply out of a desire to protect one's own emotions, and/or in the extreme, one's physical self. The experiences we have, ourselves, aren't even all that important in the age of the Internet - even a person belonging to the trans community with a very normal life can feel mistreated or victimized simply through the experiences of other trans individuals.


In any case, on the subject of your 'HRT', it's not likely that your body will feminize all that much with the aid of more or different hormones. Since you are a cis female, you probably still produce enough estrogen to keep feminine attributes, and you probably don't produce enough testosterone to offset that much. PCOS certainly does cause unwanted hair, but aside from that... there likely isn't any other noticeable effect that can be seen from a reduced amount of estrogen to reverse by your HRT. It depends on the individual, of course, but unwanted hair is usually one of only a few (or couple) masculine-appearing symptoms.


To note, the shoulders themselves don't shrink in MtF trans people, but rather the muscles in that area - it's still a loss of shoulder broadness, but the bones are set in stone unless you're very young.


If you still want to bring up the HRT that trans people utilize with your doctor, then often it's spironolactone and estradiol-17B (Estrace being the most common brand). Cyproterone acetate is another androgen-antagonist that's used, but not within the US, and usually as a "plan B".

Quote from: BloodRoses on August 06, 2012, 08:12:53 PM
Thank you     The word just threw me off because labels confuse me. 

I'm m2f. I only learned the term "cisgender" few months ago when I joined this forum. I wouldn't have battered an eyelid to your term "biological woman". I personally dislike using cis, including trans. But then I've been out of the loop for 12 years after I transitioned 15 years ago and haven't communicated with the "community" as such in that time and haven't kept up-to-date.

 I feel that using 'cis' antagonizes cis people. It's fair, equal treatment, based on how they treat us... but, to be fair, retributive behaviour isn't very productive in establishing friendly relations, so it's not a terribly productive word.


I suppose it's like how black people may refer to white people as 'white people' (or other terms). Though, since the battle is at its climax with trans people as opposed to black people, cis is an even better expression of the agitation caused by oppression, and so one would hope that cis people thoroughly understand why they're called that once the definition has been explained.


I like using it when the circumstance calls for it, but I'm not in the habit of talking to cis people. Or trans people. So I can't really say how often I would use it if I did socialize...

I agree that sometimes using cis- can be divisive (and sometimes deliberately so).

The whole cis/trans thing is also pretty binary-centric, in that it assumes 2 genders, and either staying put or switching from one to 'tother, which is a very over-simplistic view of many people's reality.

There are, for example, bigender, androgyne, intersex etc. people who are quite happy where they are, and are neither cis- (in its original sense of "on this side of") nor trans- (in its sense of "traversing a divide").

It's all so loaded .

Quote from: BloodRoses on August 06, 2012, 07:55:44 PM
I just posted this on another transgendered forum, but it seems pretty inactive there so I'm hoping to get clarification here....

I think I accidentally offended a transwoman who was nice enough to answer my question on Tumblr.    Here is my exact post:
First off, your transition is mind blowing to me. I'm very curious about the hormone treatment, if you don't mind me asking. I'm a biological female, but I'm currently on hormones to correct my facial hair issue. I believe it is due to PCOS. I would also like to develop more feminine attributes in the process, like narrower shoulders and softer facial features. I was wondering what kind of hormones are you using? My gyno put me spironolactone & birth control, so far no results.
This was the beginning of  her response:

let's get this out of the way first: you are a biological cisgender female


I'm really bad with labels and how I label myself, so I was just trying to give her a background of myself before she advised me on hormones. I didn't wanna be arrogant and just say "I'm a female" because I guess that may have been a little broad. ? So I said "biological" because I thought  biological meant what I was assigned with at birth and that's what I identify as. I'm so confused on the terminology.   I'm relatively new to the term cisgender and when I first saw it, I was ok with the meaning but I was under the impression that it was just another way of saying "biological". Everytime I see the word cisgender being used online, it is generally by younger people. I feel so out of the loop.  How did cisgenders identify themselves before that word came to exist? I apologize if my using "biological" offended members here and the community. I'm apart of the lgbt community and the last thing I wanna do is cause more division.

Thanks

Yeah, the word "biological" in reference to male/female is a bit problematic. Largely because sex itself is diverse and more complex than what most people in society are taught. The reason some people prefer to say "assigned at birth" is because it put emphasis on the fact that a person was labeled or socially assigned x sex at birth. Its just a matter of people coming to understand sex as very social rather than some kind of "biological fact." There are many different kinds of males, females or people who are intersexed, and sometimes the typical genitals/reproductive organs/chromosomes simplicity doesn't add up...and here I'm not just talking about trans people.

While cis originally meant someone who's "sex" and "gender" are aligned according to how society thinks it should be...I think its one of those cases where, just like trans, its really evolved into something else entirely. f.ex. I'm more inclined to use trans than transgender or transsexual...I just don't like the latter two words and despite that "trans" originated as a short form of those, it's evolved to take on other meanings. For a lot of people I know (and for myself, too), its just become a way of distinguishing people who are trans or aren't trans. Or in some cases cis as just a word that means that a person's assigned sex is also accompanied by the tendency to perceive themselves as/participate in things that are viewed as "cultural appropriate" according to the assigned sex. But there are certainly people who are neither trans or cis (people who don't id as trans, but also don't see themselves in traditional gender terms, or people who's identity changes according to the dynamic of a sexual relationship or personal relationship etc). So its definitely come to imply a few different things, especially in queer/trans culture.

If saying "assigned at birth" is too long and you don't want to use cis, some people say XX female vs. XX male or XY female/XY male etc. But "biological man/woman," is kind of derogatory, imo. Though a lot people use it not intending to be malicious or just not "getting" it, its just a matter of people learning to use better words that don't imply that trans people are less real than cis people.

There has to be some "acceptable" term for gender at "birth".  Your either born with male genitalia, female genitalia or intersex with indeterminate genitalia.

What happens as you grow is a different issue, but at birth it is usually more cut and dried.

Speaking just to the hormone issue, I take  estradiol under my tongue,  spironolactone two to three times per day, and I've taken  prometrium (a progesterone) two to three times per day.  I also take an aspirin a day preventatively against blood clots, which is a possible side effect of the estrogen. I take the estrogen under my tongue (sublingually) because supposedly avoiding the digestive system and going right into the bloodstream supposedly avoids some of the negative side effects, and because it increases absorption and effectiveness.  I've had very good results with this, and I'm monitored very closely.  That being said, I am investigating injectable estrogen, which is taken once every two weeks.  My life is somewhat organized around when I have to sit with a pill under my tongue for a half an hour to an hour, waiting for it to dissolve.  Because trans women take many times more hormones than what are typically prescribed to cis women to essentially force our bodies into a second puberty, it might be difficult convincing a Dr. to prescribe levels that high to you.  Depending on how much hormone you are naturally producing, it might also be possible that something like half of that might be enough, which I believe would still place you above what is normally prescribed.  That being said, I am certainly not a Dr. of any kind, and I am just extrapolating from my own experiences.  Best of luck! : )

I should also have said that hormones only affect soft tissues.  Unfortunately, they can't reduce the underlying bone structure, and so won't narrow your shoulders.  They can certainly soften your skin, affect fat distribution, and impact breast growth and, to some extent, body hair.  For me, I began passing after I was most of the way through electrolysis and my hair had begin to grow out, so I think that facial hair removal goes a long way. 

Thank you all for responding.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 07, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
There has to be some "acceptable" term for gender at "birth".  Your either born with male genitalia, female genitalia or intersex with indeterminate genitalia.

What happens as you grow is a different issue, but at birth it is usually more cut and dried.

Thank you

Quote from: Padma on August 07, 2012, 12:48:18 AM
Another advantage of using cis- and trans- is that it doesn't single out trans people as being the ones who need a label. We're less common, not less normal .

I wonder if the woman who replied to you was just clarifying that you're not asking about hormones as someone who identifies as transgender, insofar as you're a woman who's looking to "feminise" more, if I understood you correctly?

Thank you.  Her entire response was more detailed when talking about hormones, so she was aware of my needs. She gave helpful information on hrt, which is why I felt bad for initially offending her.

Quote from: Felicitá on August 07, 2012, 04:32:26 AM
I'm m2f. I only learned the term "cisgender" few months ago when I joined this forum. I wouldn't have battered an eyelid to your term "biological woman". I personally dislike using cis, including trans. But then I've been out of the loop for 12 years after I transitioned 15 years ago and haven't communicated with the "community" as such in that time and haven't kept up-to-date.

Aww :hug:

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on August 07, 2012, 04:17:27 AM
  To add, just saying, "I'm a female" may cause the trans listener to infer that you believe that, unlike you, she is not female - depending on how defensive the person is, of course. Some may appreciate a "too" following a statement of your femaleness, while others might find it patronizing. However, I'm sure most mature people would recognize that you're just trying to make them feel better with that word; if not, then it's a shame that they  are the way they are.


  It's an important note that the trans community, because of how it is often mistreated, finds ways for various addresses to be seen as hostile simply out of a desire to protect one's own emotions, and/or in the extreme, one's physical self. The experiences we have, ourselves, aren't even all that important in the age of the Internet - even a person belonging to the trans community with a very normal life can feel mistreated or victimized simply through the experiences of other trans individuals.


  In any case, on the subject of your 'HRT', it's not likely that your body will feminize all that much with the aid of more or different hormones. Since you are a cis female, you probably still produce enough estrogen to keep feminine attributes, and you probably don't produce enough testosterone to offset that much. PCOS certainly does cause unwanted hair, but aside from that... there likely isn't any other noticeable effect that can be seen from a reduced amount of estrogen to reverse by your HRT. It depends on the individual, of course, but unwanted hair is usually one of only a few (or couple) masculine-appearing symptoms.


  To note, the shoulders themselves don't shrink in MtF trans people, but rather the muscles in that area - it's still a loss of shoulder broadness, but the bones are set in stone unless you're very young.


  If you still want to bring up the HRT that trans people utilize with your doctor, then often it's spironolactone and estradiol-17B (Estrace being the most common brand). Cyproterone acetate is another androgen-antagonist that's used, but not within the US, and usually as a "plan B".

Thank you for responding I've been cleared for Spironoloactone, but I'll ask about Estrace for my next appointment.

Quote from: Padma on August 07, 2012, 05:08:08 AM
I agree that sometimes using cis- can be divisive (and sometimes deliberately so).

The whole cis/trans thing is also pretty binary-centric, in that it assumes 2 genders, and either staying put or switching from one to 'tother, which is a very over-simplistic view of many people's reality.

There are, for example, bigender, androgyne, intersex etc. people who are quite happy where they are, and are neither cis- (in its original sense of "on this side of") nor trans- (in its sense of "traversing a divide").
It's all so loaded .

Tell me about it lol, but it's a learning experience for me.

Quote from: Berserk on August 07, 2012, 11:12:45 AM
Yeah, the word "biological" in reference to male/female is a bit problematic. Largely because sex itself is diverse and more complex than what most people in society are taught. The reason some people prefer to say "assigned at birth" is because it put emphasis on the fact that a person was labeled or socially assigned x sex at birth. Its just a matter of people coming to understand sex as very social rather than some kind of "biological fact." There are many different kinds of males, females or people who are intersexed, and sometimes the typical genitals/reproductive organs/chromosomes simplicity doesn't add up...and here I'm not just talking about trans people.

While cis originally meant someone who's "sex" and "gender" are aligned according to how society thinks it should be...I think its one of those cases where, just like trans, its really evolved into something else entirely. f.ex. I'm more inclined to use trans than transgender or transsexual...I just don't like the latter two words and despite that "trans" originated as a short form of those, it's evolved to take on other meanings. For a lot of people I know (and for myself, too), its just become a way of distinguishing people who are trans or aren't trans. Or in some cases cis as just a word that means that a person's assigned sex is also accompanied by the tendency to perceive themselves as/participate in things that are viewed as "cultural appropriate" according to the assigned sex. But there are certainly people who are neither trans or cis (people who don't id as trans, but also don't see themselves in traditional gender terms, or people who's identity changes according to the dynamic of a sexual relationship or personal relationship etc). So its definitely come to imply a few different things, especially in queer/trans culture.

If saying "assigned at birth" is too long and you don't want to use cis, some people say XX female vs. XX male or XY female/XY male etc. But "biological man/woman," is kind of derogatory, imo. Though a lot people use it not intending to be malicious or just not "getting" it, its just a matter of people learning to use better words that don't imply that trans people are less real than cis people.

"Assigned at birth" could work for me. I guess it's just been something that I don't have to address. Even when I typed out my original response to her, I hesitated for a while.  I feel uncomfortable addressing people as "trans" too because it's another thing to divide us.  I try to cancel out so many labels and put us all under the same roof. I guess I have too much of a naive outlook on things. 

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 07, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
There has to be some "acceptable" term for gender at "birth".  Your either born with male genitalia, female genitalia or intersex with indeterminate genitalia.

What happens as you grow is a different issue, but at birth it is usually more cut and dried.

I don't mind cisgender, I just wish the word had been around when I was born.

Quote from: Erica on August 07, 2012, 11:49:03 AM


Speaking just to the hormone issue, I take  estradiol under my tongue,  spironolactone two to three times per day, and I've taken  prometrium (a progesterone) two to three times per day.  I also take an aspirin a day preventatively against blood clots, which is a possible side effect of the estrogen. I take the estrogen under my tongue (sublingually) because supposedly avoiding the digestive system and going right into the bloodstream supposedly avoids some of the negative side effects, and because it increases absorption and effectiveness.  I've had very good results with this, and I'm monitored very closely.  That being said, I am investigating injectable estrogen, which is taken once every two weeks.  My life is somewhat organized around when I have to sit with a pill under my tongue for a half an hour to an hour, waiting for it to dissolve.  Because trans women take many times more hormones than what are typically prescribed to cis women to essentially force our bodies into a second puberty, it might be difficult convincing a Dr. to prescribe levels that high to you.  Depending on how much hormone you are naturally producing, it might also be possible that something like half of that might be enough, which I believe would still place you above what is normally prescribed.  That being said, I am certainly not a Dr. of any kind, and I am just extrapolating from my own experiences.  Best of luck! : )

Thank you :hug:

Quote from: Padma on August 07, 2012, 05:08:08 AM
I agree that sometimes using cis- can be divisive (and sometimes deliberately so).

Though all it means is that your birth sex and gender line up. It's interesting how this is divisive in some circles (even intentionally). Actually it's good because they are both Greek roots (trans and cis). I found that out and it explained everything. :-)


I think the problem is that people in a privileged class aren't used to being called something. "We name you but you don't get to name us". Sometimes I think it's as simple as "cis" gendered, "ain't nobody gonna call me "sissy gendered". LOL!


--Jay Jay