Quote from: Sephirah on August 05, 2012, 12:05:59 PM
Before I say anything else, I have a question which may seem like nothing to do with anything, but your answer will tell me a lot about the kind of person you are - and... well, who knows.

Okay, imagine a room, decorated with all manner of interesting furniture, paintings and ornaments. On one wall of this room is a big, full-length window. Outside this window is a vast forest, teeming with life, beneath a vibrant blue sky.

Now, where would you place yourself? Would you be inside the room, looking out of the window - watching the wildlife darting through the trees, the faint wisps of cloud drifting across the sky, wishing you could feel the warm breeze on your face? Or would you be outside the room, looking in the window at the decor, the placement of the furniture and wondering what kind of person lived in it?

You're right, it seems like it has nothing to do with anything.


I tend to be something of a homebody, so I'd imagine myself staying protected behind the glass. Though desire would build up to go out and be part of the forest. For a little while, as long as I knew there was a safe place waiting for me behind the glass.

Quote from: agfrommd on August 05, 2012, 12:36:59 PM

You're right, it seems like it has nothing to do with anything.


I tend to be something of a homebody, so I'd imagine myself staying protected behind the glass. Though desire would build up to go out and be part of the forest. For a little while, as long as I knew there was a safe place waiting for me behind the glass.

Hmm. Not quite the answer I was expecting, but very interesting.

Okay. I don't normally do this, but... based on that, and a general feeling I get from you, here's a theory.

Perhaps the reason you're unsure about your inner identity is because you feel most comfortable and confident when you can watch the world from a place of safety. A place which will protect you and keep you from harm. Being male bodied serves a purpose for you, in terms of how the outside world sees you and treats you. It's something which has developed over your whole life. And because of this, perhaps there's a deep fear that's kept your... hmm... self identity, or self-determined identity from asserting itself.

You say in your OP that you've wanted to be a woman from your teenage years. Perhaps it's possible that this want has been... hmm... held in check by your physical body, your anatomical attributes, and how they have been perceived by everyone else and the world around you. It's your place of safety, from which you observe the world from behind your eyes, or "the glass". Perhaps an equally strong attachment has been formed through your association with this "safe place". A place which you only feel comfortable about leaving for brief periods, and venturing out beyond the glass... maybe exploring the real you. But you feel a need to have that sanctuary to return to when you feel overwhelmed. Perhaps that's why you don't hate your body, and have no desire to undergo HRT or SRS. It's your castle, the place you can go back to when you need to. The place which has kept you safe, in terms of the way you feel about yourself, for a long time.

Maybe, rather than identity, your feelings towards your male body come from familiarity, and even occasionally reliance. And the real you is the spirit who dares to venture out from that safe haven occasionally, to exist for brief periods unshackled, but never having had the opportunity to be for any period of time in order to grow and develop because of a need to return to your sanctuary, to be kept safe from harm.

Quote from: Sephirah on August 05, 2012, 01:28:19 PM
Maybe, rather than identity, your feelings towards your male body come from familiarity, and even occasionally reliance. And the real you is the spirit who dares to venture out from that safe haven occasionally, to exist for brief periods unshackled, but never having had the opportunity to be for any period of time in order to grow and develop because of a need to return to your sanctuary, to be kept safe from harm.

Thank you Sephirah. For someone who has never met me, you have amazing insight into where I'm coming from. You've given me a lot to think about.

ok, ok, maybe it's the researcher in me, or maybe its the mental health professional in me (maybe i shouldn't out myself like that - i've come across many posts where MH people have not been very helpful) but what would you have said if he stayed in the room but didn't look out the window? What would it have meant if he left the room and then looked back? What would it have meant if he left the room and froliced in the forest and forgot the room existed at all?

BTY, to the OP, No one can tell you you are x or you are Y. Our job as therapists to to help clients get their own answers. It would be unethical to give a client an answer - other than just basic education. There is no way any therapist will be able to tell you one way of the other your gender. What she/he can do is clarify for you what you are thinking to help you derive an answer.

Quote from: henrytwob on August 07, 2012, 09:13:42 PM
What would it have meant if he left the room and then looked back? What would it have meant if he left the room and froliced in the forest and forgot the room existed at all?

Im finding im looking back at the room feeling sad i wasted all these years. I tried to play the "conventional gender" game for 30 years. I really wanted it to work. Got a good education, married, Put away ear/toe rings, dressed conservatively, kept my hair short, kept a furry body so i looked right in the locker room, ect.
Endured repeated depression, anger issues, alcoholism, no friendships.

Now i find a forest where this is all ok and even more and im ok too. i went from a hallway of closed doors to a place with eminence possibilities i feel a bit lost even vulnerable. Perhaps ill just become a owl , fly up in the trees of the androgen forest and just watch for a wile .

Well, I would say that you don't feel comfortable presenting as a woman because you don't feel like you could pass. If you really want to be a woman, you should try to be a bit more open with transition. SRS isn't necessary, but HRT would be helpful. I never hated my male parts either, so I can relate. Also, I never knew what it meant to "be male//female". People have called me girl-like and man-ish, so I have no clue what these words mean.

I couldn't help reading your post and thinking that it reminded me of some of the questions that at one time I had asked myself. What does it mean to 'feel' female or even 'be' female? What does it mean to dress female? etc. etc. When I read your list, I remember creating lists for myself as well and almost always part of what was trapping me was my unnoticed assumptions that were putting me into a box of categories that when unpacked weren't nearly as daunting as I thought. For example, I too don't really see myself in dresses or stuffed bras. But rather than stopping and worrying whether it meant I wasn't female, I started to ask are women really so monolithic? What females do I recognize, connect with, and understand. For instance, they are jeans and t-shirts girls. The girls that will play soccer, go camping, hiking, and be great mama's to their kids.

I've slowly did a number of things that may or may not be of use to you.
(1) I went through a list of values and I defined them as how I experienced them from socialization. e.g. what is family, friendship, courage, loyalty, community, etc.
(2) I then created my own living definitions as I see them after getting rid of the old expectations and then my partner and I started talking about what we really wanted in our lives and worked on understanding how we understood our values and creating a small focus on 5 or 6 of them to build our life.
(3) Basically, what I did in 1 and 2 was how I went through my list of being female that was similar to yours (but not the same). I started to ask what is my unwritten assumptions about being female, male and trans. I started understanding what kind of woman I identify as which is helping me work towards change. When I started moving beyond hidden assumptions and identifying what in particular I saw then it wasn't nearly as hard to know exactly where I fit.

With transition, I am always open to changing my understanding yet again. Good luck to you in your journey wherever it goes.

First of all, it's called "Transition" not insta-swap! You have time, don't panic! Your points are something that I thought of as well, for years...

* I never felt female. Still don't.: In my culture/upbringing, transgender wasn't in the vocabulary...  I always knew I was different, and off from the rest of the little boys, but couldn't put the two together.

* Never had the slightest urge to crossdress until I considered presenting female.: I never did, and still don't. I wear female clothes, but they are all pretty androgynous / butchy. My cisfemale wife often runs around in boy clothes. Our clothes do NOT make us.

* Don't hate my male parts.: I never did either. My parents gave them to me, and they served me all right. I was a bit sad when I woke up two weeks ago after surgery... but only for a split second. 

* Do feel male some of the time.: Cultural roles run deep. Who is to say what it feels like to "feel" female? Some females might feel feminine, weak, scared, prissy or passive, while others feel their power, bravery, strength, and can kick your butt at any given sport....

* Don't want to go through SRS.: Painful, very expensive, irreversible. Who wants that?
* Don't want to take HRT: These things are an additional risk for sure. Who wants that?

* Am mildly uncomfortable at the idea of wearing dresses, skirts or a stuffed bra.: As above. Nobody is forcing you to wear anything on the outside. Decide who you are on the inside, get it fixed if surgery is required, and then dress how you like. It is nobody's business but your own.

Quote from: GendrKweer on August 14, 2012, 08:50:41 AM

* Don't want to take HRT: These things are an additional risk for sure. Who wants that?

3 month ago i said the same thing now im considering HRT. I said " I dont want to crossdress, use makeup, shave my legs ect and now i do and like it.
Now that the man, gay ,gender filters are off and i explore my feelings im amazed what my true feelings are.
Im think hrt is about 2 years away for me for various reasons. Not going to rush things. If the benefit out weigh the risks its the right thing to do.
If hormones could end the frustration, anger, fear, guilt and the noise in our heads   Its worth growing boobs and saying "See Ya" to libido.
For some of us

Quote from: joann on August 15, 2012, 06:26:46 AM
3 month ago i said the same thing now im considering HRT. I said " I dont want to crossdress, use makeup, shave my legs ect and now i do and like it.
Now that the man, gay ,gender filters are off and i explore my feelings im amazed what my true feelings are.
Im think hrt is about 2 years away for me for various reasons. Not going to rush things. If the benefit out weigh the risks its the right thing to do.
If hormones could end the frustration, anger, fear, guilt and the noise in our heads   Its worth growing boobs and saying "See Ya" to libido.
For some of us

Hey Joann! I can't express the relief I personally felt when I finally got all the meds lined up and began hrt.... take a little while to get going, a few days, ramping up, but wow. i could really see how testosteron had been poisoning my thoughts and body for 30 years.... well, 15 years post puberty anyway! You could start on a low dose for psychological relief without much worry, which is what I did, then went to proper doses once i lined up a psychologist and endo to supervise.... Libido does not go, goodness no, not for me. Thinking on it, I might say it only goes in people who fetishize females or this processbut aren't actually as transgender as they think they are, if that makes any sense. it would be a litmus test of sorts for you maybe? A year on low dose hrt and youll truly know if you are ready to move forward or back. Good luck in either case!

Quote from: GendrKweer on August 15, 2012, 08:21:47 PM
Hey Joann! I can't express the relief I personally felt when I finally got all the meds lined up and began hrt.... take a little while to get going, a few days, ramping up, but wow. i could really see how testosteron had been poisoning my thoughts and body for 30 years.... well, 15 years post puberty anyway! You could start on a low dose for psychological relief without much worry, which is what I did, then went to proper doses once i lined up a psychologist and endo to supervise.... Libido does not go, goodness no, not for me. Thinking on it, I might say it only goes in people who fetishize females or this processbut aren't actually as transgender as they think they are, if that makes any sense. it would be a litmus test of sorts for you maybe? A year on low dose hrt and youll truly know if you are ready to move forward or back. Good luck in either case!

I did low dose HRT with success to quiet down the ruckus in my head several times in the past. However the underlying problem never goes away. But with help from what I call the 3Ds you get good at sidestepping the whole trans thing for decades. They are Distractions, Diversions, and a touch of Denial. In my case I also needed my monthly or so escape from maleness by cross-dressing at home. Something I've done about all my life.

The system worked well for about 4 decades. YMMV

Quote from: GendrKweer on August 15, 2012, 08:21:47 PM
i could really see how testosteron had been poisoning my thoughts and body for 30 years

Ok . so you feel that T was adversely affecting you opposed to suffering from the lack of estrogen?
In my case i am taking Testim gel 1 tube/day because my doc thought it would help with cognition problems due to my MS. Due to my drinking (which has been greatly attenuated) my liver couldn't make enough of a factor that allowed estoril to buildup in my system causing the feminism feelings (Oh..Libido went to 0 too). This went on for the first two months. When i realized what was happening i cut drinking down to 3 glasses o wine/day. feminin feelings went away.
Thinking of continuing testosterone and adding Estriol cream 6.25 mgs topically daily.

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Estrogen-Bioidentical-Wrinkles-Menopause/dp/B004XJIDEO

Quote from: joann on August 16, 2012, 06:55:05 AM
Ok . so you feel that T was adversely affecting you opposed to suffering from the lack of estrogen?

No, no, I don't mean that quite so literally.... just that for me, after removing it from my circulation, my personality "improved" so much that my wife couldn't believe it. And she thought had adored me before! But now she said I was a different person, the same basic person but more even, level, able to express, able to communicate, unconcerned about things that used to drive me up the walls.... So the estrogen and lack of testosterone was the key. I can't speak about the interactions between hormones and alcohol, although I do tip the red wine with some frequency.... cheers!

It sounds like you should experiment and see what suites your fancy, and then move from there. We're all different and have different goals of what it means to be transgender.