"I've always been uncomfortable with the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin." But until recently, I couldn't quite describe why."

doubleinvert: Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin

Thank you for posting that article.  I am strong proponent of the concept of natural (human) rights - those that are granted as a function of our humanity, rather than those created through legislation.

It is hypocritical in the extreme.  If you define someone by their sexual orientation or gender identity, and then tell them that you hate them for it you are a hypocrite who want's to make themselves feel righteous at others' expense.

Quote from: justmeinoz on August 11, 2012, 04:00:08 AM
It is hypocritical in the extreme.  If you define someone by their sexual orientation or gender identity, and then tell them that you hate them for it you are a hypocrite who want's to make themselves feel righteous at others' expense.

Humph, I'm not told that I'm HATED --- I DEEPLY disappointed some folks.
A nicer way of saying I COMMITED the unforgivable sin? I guess so.

When lying in hospital 2 days post my heart op and already in transition then, I was told by the same 'disappointed' folks that it was God's punishment to me for wanting to be a woman...
But mind you, the ARE VERY good Christians, at least the way they see themselves.

Some folks just got it sooooo sorted for themselves, bless them...
Now their son ODed 3 days ago on Heroine, it makes me wonder how much of this sort of 'godly wisdom' he was fed during his life. He was 30...

Just food for thought,
Axélle

Maybe they will see that bigotry has real consequences. Sad, but they will have to live with it.

Sorry, but which ever way I read that article it presupposes that consensual sexual identity is sinful.

I can why people say that.  That would be like saying you hate drug abuse.  Yes drug abuse is a bad thing.  Destroys lives, causes crime, tears down neighborhoods.  But to hate drug abuse also means that you natural hate the abuser. 

"How could they do that?"
"Don't they realize what it is doing to them and their family?"

If one must love the sinner, then it follows that the sinner has sinned.  But who decided that being Transsexual/transgendered was a sin.

Quote from: Jamie D on August 11, 2012, 03:49:36 AM
Thank you for posting that article.  I am strong proponent of the concept of natural (human) rights - those that are granted as a function of our humanity, rather than those created through legislation.

But, there are those to will question or even deny the humanity of trans* and queer persons. Some such persons will actively campaign to have laws written denying rights, with marriage rights being one such example. So it seems to me, that there are times when laws are needed to provide those "unalienable rights."

Quote from: spacial on August 11, 2012, 07:45:59 AM
Sorry, but which ever way I read that article it presupposes that consensual sexual identity is sinful.

Hmm, that was not at all what I was aiming for.

Could you give me some more details?

Quote from: Connie Anne on August 11, 2012, 09:16:53 AM
Hmm, that was not at all what I was aiming for.

Could you give me some more details?

I apologise if I might be thinking along a different track.

I expect my rights, as a human, to exist. 

I'm fed up feeling that I have anything to justify, excuse or defend. I exist therefore I have a right to exist. The same right as anyone else.

I refuse to feel gratitude  when someone is kind or friendly to me. I expect basic courtesy. If someone wants to be my friend then they accept the package as I will. If the package is not to their liking then they can go.

It is personally offensive to me, that someone has decided to 'forgive' black people for being the product of naughty angles. It is personally offensive to me for someone to decide that Jews are forgiven for the so called murder of Jesus. It is personally offensive to me that disabled people are treated as serving punishment from god, or that mentally ill people are infected by evil spirits.

People who believe they can forgive, excuse or tolerate others because of how we are made are beyond hypocrisy, beyond contempt.

If I am going to hell is a basket then who are these people to tolerate such a sinner?

Do these people tolerate me believing they can 'convert me'? Well I won't accept that. I won't tolerate that and such people can take a long walk off a short pier. I'd much prefer to spend eternity in hell than a second with a god who, having created me as I am, then expects me to feel one more second of shame. If that is truely what god has said then he can expect a major middle finger from me. No paradise is worth that!

Just not my sort of people. Though as I said, I apologise of I'm on a different track.



Addition.

Something else has occured to me.

There are thousands of religions. The only thing they all have in common is they claim they are right. All others are wrong.

Now, for the sake argument, assume there are only 100 religions.

If it turns out they are all right, then they are actually all wrong.

But if it turns out that only one is right then you have a 1% chance of going to heaven. And so does everyone else.

So, these people, when they tell you that you are a sinner, have a 1% chance of being right, which is the same as you.

So, they want you to throw away your 1% chance in the hope that their 1% is better. Or they can take a hike!

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on August 11, 2012, 08:00:30 AM
[clipped]

But who decided that being Transsexual/transgendered was a sin.

Well, it be them that decided - with the help of their teachings/learning, and their pastor who is speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit...

He, the Pastor is divorced and married again, and the second wife a substance abuser (alcohol).

One excellent, insightful company on being a conduit of the Holy Spirit on matters of spirits and other abominations upon the lord, such as TS.

They got it all sorted for everyone else --- but for themselves.

Sadly, I do NOT think this is such a great exception when it comes to the "righteous" and experts on condemnation of others' conduct and life.

Axélle

For what it's worth, the pastors at my church do not contend they are right or that their way is the right way. They state their beliefs and invite discussion and debate. Likewise, the late Zen master of my sangha had described Buddhist practice as "something we do to amuse ourselves."

I was invited to leave the Wiccan coven I had been studying with years ago because I would not reflexively accept certain tenets.

I try to avoid those who say their way is right. The objective of my blog post had been to describe how I don't understand the points of view of those who claim to love me, but won't truly support me.

Every time I've heard these words uttered by people it was merely a shallow cop-out to make their trans/homophobia more palatable.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 11, 2012, 11:56:48 AM
Every time I've heard these words uttered by people it was merely a shallow cop-out to make their trans/homophobia more palatable.

Yeah. This.