Quote from: Anon on August 19, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
That's interesting.
So, if this was the case with trans guys as well, do you think that's because after T many subconsciously feel fully accepted as men and begin adjusting to those social pressures?

I think a lot of trans guys take cues from the media or what we can perceive as being typical male behavior. But the problem is, in my opinion, we were not raised in that social role so we learn our behaviors at an older age and through different means. Depending on location and how acceptable some traits and actions are I think will absolutely affect us. If you live in a place where men are quiet, you will probably learn to be quiet. I can't think of any other reason so many trans guys suddenly become so "I'm a man, I'm macho" after getting on T. They are conforming to what their society tells them is normal male behavior. At the end of the day its all they can do because no matter what we may wish we weren't raised in that social role. Just like a lot of us probably know more about socializing in women's circles than we want to because we had to learn to survive and that was the role we were raised in.

I'm not saying hormones don't play a part. Maybe for some guys sure it makes it harder to cry, just like it changes the way you smell - it plays with the chemicals in your body. But I don't think it can be said that for *all* trans guys being on T makes it harder to cry. Hormones don't fundamentally change who you are. To use myself as an example - I was loud, dorky and had no concept of when to shut up pre T. I'm the same now, but just a happier, goofier version because I feel good. Its like liquid confidence that I stab into my thigh every other week. I think that saying all the positive mental changes trans guys get after starting hormones is because the of T is actually taking away something. They felt confident and happy so they were able to be themselves. We do that - not the hormones.

Quote from: RagingShadow on August 18, 2012, 07:41:14 AM
i cry more when I watch sad Tv shows (army wives leaves me a dissolving mess lol) but i cry less for real life things.
i used to cry when i got really upset or frustrated, but now I'm more apt to get mad. not like, throwing things mad, just kinda simmering "grr". i never realy cried when i was sad, except when a pet died :C

This is pretty much me as well.  I used to cry at everything, especially when angry or frustrated.  Now it's mainly just sad tv shows/movies/commercials.  I did break down a couple weeks ago during a moment of severe lower dysphoria.  I couldn't believe how hard I cried.  Gross sobbing basically.  That's extremely rare for me. 

Sometimes I feel like I'm going to tear up at work when a patient expresses how grateful they are or how much they have accomplished.  I guess that's a feeling of pride in my patients and I don't actually cry, so to me it doesn't count lol

I remember hearing something about how men's tear ducts are smaller then women's, and that's why it's harder for men to cry. I don't know how sound that is, medically speaking, but it could explain some things. Maybe taking T could physically alter the tear ducts on some people and that's why they have a harder time crying?

I used to cry a lot when I was a kid. If someone looked at me like they were angry, Id start crying, or if I was really frustrated with something. As I've gotten older, I don't cry as much, but it's been a bad year. I spent a week curled up in the fetal position last spring crying because I needed a root canal and couldn't afford it, one of the only times I've ever cried from physical pain.

Quote from: JasonRX on August 18, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
I was never one to cry much even before HRT. I was never one to cry from physical pain or because something was "sad" per se.
I only cry when I can't deal with built up stress any longer and that's pretty much how it's always been.

SO TRUE

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 19, 2012, 04:38:54 PM
And you are saying this is why we can't cry after T?  I don't buy it.

Fair enough. It's a difficult question to definitively answer and we have differing opinions. But the alternative seems just as ridiculous to me--that men are inherently and biologically less able to express emotion than women. If people really do believe that, and if we all agree that we are working toward a world where men and women have equal opportunity in all aspects of our lives, then I'd like to see all the people who believe that to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. I'd like to see them working extra hard with young boys, whom they see as handicapped in a certain manner, and perhaps teach them to express their emotions more openly. Provide some extra encouragement to young boys to express themselves and, more importantly, try extra hard not to shame them when they cry. I don't tend to see that though. I see people using "it's in our nature as men or women" as an excuse to just give up and allow these societal gender norms to be encouraged and perpetuated. We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

Okay, as a biological male, I can easily say that anyone who thinks that biological men are inherently incapable of crying are wrong. I can cry; I do it a lot. I frankly think it takes more strength to cry than it takes not to. Anyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

Just my $0.02...

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 10:46:30 AMAnyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

I guess I'm fairly forgiving about that because our culture is so thoroughly saturated and the indoctrination into that mindset begins so early. I do hope we can encourage others to continue working to change that culture though.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 10:03:00 AM
And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

To be honest, I feel very little pressure, but crying has hardly ever been an outlet for me.
Then again, it's a stretch to say I ever was truly socialized as "female", so that also could have something to do with it, but only possibly.

I don't think this has anything to do with "can" or "can't". I do believe it is hormones, but I think it's just that it has to do with the changes in our minds. Of course it can be enhanced by society or culture in some cases, but in general hormones change our minds. They change how we mentally filter things. Men and women are in fact very different in many ways and unfortunately are biologically not equal. That isn't to say we can't change the world so things are equal, but that biology cannot be.

Social upbringing can change what is inherent in us, but that doesn't mean it's the sole cause.

You are equating expressing emotion with crying.  I can express emotion and do so often but I cannot cry.  I can tear up, but I've only cried a handful of times since starting T.

Quote from: Wolf Man on August 20, 2012, 03:12:12 PM
I don't think this has anything to do with "can" or "can't". I do believe it is hormones, but I think it's just that it has to do with the changes in our minds. Of course it can be enhanced by society or culture in some cases, but in general hormones change our minds. They change how we mentally filter things. Men and women are in fact very different in many ways and unfortunately are biologically not equal. That isn't to say we can't change the world so things are equal, but that biology cannot be.

Social upbringing can change what is inherent in us, but that doesn't mean it's the sole cause.

Its interesting that you say that hormones change our minds. Are you referring to our emotional state (I feel better because I am taking steps to be seen as I want) or it alters our brain patterns? I haven't noticed any real differences in the way my mind works at all, expect for the fact that I am not nearly as depressed - but I always contributed that to the placebo effect. There's no way my shots work in five minutes like I have convinced myself they have.

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 10:46:30 AM
I frankly think it takes more strength to cry than it takes not to. Anyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

I don't think its fear or cowardice that stops men from crying. My father was actively beat for doing it where anyone could see. I think, like dalebert suggested, its so ingrained in western culture that its hard to get away from.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
Fair enough. It's a difficult question to definitively answer and we have differing opinions. But the alternative seems just as ridiculous to me--that men are inherently and biologically less able to express emotion than women. If people really do believe that, and if we all agree that we are working toward a world where men and women have equal opportunity in all aspects of our lives, then I'd like to see all the people who believe that to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. I'd like to see them working extra hard with young boys, whom they see as handicapped in a certain manner, and perhaps teach them to express their emotions more openly. Provide some extra encouragement to young boys to express themselves and, more importantly, try extra hard not to shame them when they cry. I don't tend to see that though. I see people using "it's in our nature as men or women" as an excuse to just give up and allow these societal gender norms to be encouraged and perpetuated. We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

We are not to a point where we can say that gender norms don't matter, and I don't think anyone can claim that we are at a point where gender norms can be ignored. Its a sad fact, but a fact none the less. Society and culture affect all of us whether we want to admit it or not. If it didn't, there wouldn't be 'taboo' things - people could do whatever. But, societal pressure exists, and for young boys, society tells them not to cry. If someone wants to claim that males have a biological difference that makes it so they can't cry, I'd like them to show me how its possible that little boys can bawl their eyes out just like any little girl. They stop later because society tells them its a "girly" thing, they are being pansies, or for some reason that any shred of being less than a he-man is a disgrace.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 10:03:00 AM
And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

I haven't lived in an area where the LGBT population was high in any regards, so I can't say that its harder on trans men, though from what I read in a lot of queer news sources seems to tell me that the partner and I would want to stay away from some areas. Its hard enough to be gay - I certainly don't want to complicate matters for him just because I'm trans.

I think, removing trans from the equation - its harder for men who are perceived as being feminine in any regard. The difference with say you and I is that I have no idea how to navigate the social waters. I would be less likely to pick up on social shaming in some situations. If I knew that I would probably try to overcompensate. You're had to navigate the waters for far longer so its a situation where you have to constantly be under that pressure. After a while I imagine it must take its toll. This (obviously) isn't the only difference of course, so forgive my oversimplification - my coffee hasn't worked its way into my brain yet.

Quote from: Ayden on August 20, 2012, 07:47:44 PM

I don't think its fear or cowardice that stops men from crying. My father was actively beat for doing it where anyone could see. I think, like dalebert suggested, its so ingrained in western culture that its hard to get away from.

We are not to a point where we can say that gender norms don't matter, and I don't think anyone can claim that we are at a point where gender norms can be ignored. Its a sad fact, but a fact none the less. Society and culture affect all of us whether we want to admit it or not. If it didn't, there wouldn't be 'taboo' things - people could do whatever. But, societal pressure exists, and for young boys, society tells them not to cry. If someone wants to claim that males have a biological difference that makes it so they can't cry, I'd like them to show me how its possible that little boys can bawl their eyes out just like any little girl. They stop later because society tells them its a "girly" thing, they are being pansies, or for some reason that any shred of being less than a he-man is a disgrace.

Well, he was probably afraid of getting beaten, which is understandable. I actually can't believe anyone would beat their child for crying, though. Where exactly is your dad from?

PS--> I completely agree. Societal pressures do exist. I just choose to ignore about 85% of them.

What I meant was that trans men are concerned to varying degrees with passing and how they act is a big part of that. That's where the extra pressure comes from. When society is obsessed with sticking a binary label on people and when society has very strict notions of what the appropriate behavior is for those gender roles, there is extra pressure on a person who is trying to express and be perceived as a particular gender to conform to gender expectations. Of course, how well one passes can alleviate a lot of that. It seems like I hear from a lot of guys that they feel a lot more comfortable about their traditionally feminine traits once they are passing really consistently.

And btw, when I say "expressing emotion", for me that means crying as well. Crying is a particularly important one, IMO. So let me rephrase. If anyone feels boys & men don't cry as easily, then I hope you are providing the boys in your life with extra encouragement to cry and being extra careful not to make them feel ashamed when they do. Anyone who's ever taught their boys that boys don't cry doesn't seem to actually have much faith that it's inherent to our nature.

Oh and even if YOU don't teach them that, they'll very soon be getting an earful of that brainwashing in school. That first humiliating moment of "losing control" and getting shamed by a circle of other boys makes quite a powerful and lasting first impression.

I think it is a mixture of things. How emotional a person you are to begin with, how you were raised and hormones.

I do think the hormones play a part, my emotions were all over the place pre T. They could switch from one extreme to the other very easily. I would say I was far more emotionally sensitive, that's not to say I cried often because I didn't I just felt thing s a lot more. I am far more neutral in my emotions now, it takes a lot more to make me feel the more extreme sides of both happiness and sadness. I was very rarely just 'ok' before T now I am very rarely anything other then 'ok' lol.

In terms of growing up I was encouraged not to cry at least not from physical pain. I felt social pressure from the age of around eight to toughen up. I distinctly remember thinking I had to stop crying and a little later that I had to try to show as little emotional as possible when something hurt.

I'm afraid to say that on the very few occasions I have cried infront of people, I have regretted it deeply and felt ashamed afterwards. I'm not really sure where that has come from, I have never been told off by any family member for crying. Perhaps it is because I at that point had never seen any men in my family cry.

I also feel a pressure to be strong for those around me. I am I think it's fair to say, my mums rock. The one time I have seen my dad cry was at my parents divorce, I was 12 years old at the time. It was the first time I had ever lived without my mum and I was hurting a lot but I felt like I could not cry infront of my dad because I needed to be there for him. I felt the same with my mum.

I have not cried since starting T because I haven't felt the need. If I did I would only be comfortable crying alone.

Females produce more of a hormone, I forget what it's called, that is involved with with formation of tears. Male tear ducts also can hold more tears than a female.

I'm assuming T will cause you to produces less of whatever the hormone is. I don't know if it can alter the shape of your tear ducts.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
What I meant was that trans men are concerned to varying degrees with passing and how they act is a big part of that. That's where the extra pressure comes from. When society is obsessed with sticking a binary label on people and when society has very strict notions of what the appropriate behavior is for those gender roles, there is extra pressure on a person who is trying to express and be perceived as a particular gender to conform to gender expectations. Of course, how well one passes can alleviate a lot of that. It seems like I hear from a lot of guys that they feel a lot more comfortable about their traditionally feminine traits once they are passing really consistently.

And btw, when I say "expressing emotion", for me that means crying as well. Crying is a particularly important one, IMO. So let me rephrase. If anyone feels boys & men don't cry as easily, then I hope you are providing the boys in your life with extra encouragement to cry and being extra careful not to make them feel ashamed when they do. Anyone who's ever taught their boys that boys don't cry doesn't seem to actually have much faith that it's inherent to our nature.

Oh and even if YOU don't teach them that, they'll very soon be getting an earful of that brainwashing in school. That first humiliating moment of "losing control" and getting shamed by a circle of other boys makes quite a powerful and lasting first impression.

I totally agree with you, and so does my partner. He was fortunate in his upbringing, but the "boys don't cry" thing really damaging to young boys.

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 08:07:29 PM
Well, he was probably afraid of getting beaten, which is understandable. I actually can't believe anyone would beat their child for crying, though. Where exactly is your dad from?

PS--> I completely agree. Societal pressures do exist. I just choose to ignore about 85% of them.

He was terrified of being hit - the sad thing is started when he was about 5 too, and his older sister was allowed to cry. I generally don't speak ill of my own family since everyone has their faults, but his mother is a b**** and I hate how badly she messed him up. My whole family is originally from the south - western Kentucky. Coal mining country and the land of tiny, racist, sexist small towns. That same woman still messes with his head and tells him its his duty to take care of her in her old age and heaven forbid he shows any weakness. When my grandfather (who wasn't a part of my dad's life until he was 38) ended up in the hospital and nearly died from a car accident his mother had the nerve to tell him to "man up" and "stop acting like a puss." because he was crying. His father was almost dead and they had finally started building a relationship and she had the nerve to say crap like that. I really, really dislike that woman.

I agree with Tom on this (in fact, we have discussed it). I really do think that hormones do play a role. I am generally not ashamed to cry, and have had some cries since starting hormones, but it is a very different experience. Only 4 months in, I already experience my emotions differently on a  purely physical level, and sometimes that translates into not being able to cry or not being able to cry in the same way. I really don't think that over 4 months my psyche could change enough to alter my feelings that much - I think it might be a part, but in my case, it is difficult to deny the possibility of a biological component.

Jesse7 is helping my point. Yes, society and culture infulences crying. Yes, little boys cry. Again you are going to the point of men having the inability to cry when I'm saying it's just biologically different. Boys will change with testosterone, so they are not men. After all that crying beyond tearing up becomes less frequent and crying or sobbing in general become something that is encouraged to be repressed by society. I also think with the mind changing is that what triggers you to cry becomes different.

Quote from: Wolf Man on August 21, 2012, 02:09:00 AM
Jesse7 is helping my point. Yes, society and culture infulences crying. Yes, little boys cry. Again you are going to the point of men having the inability to cry when I'm saying it's just biologically different. Boys will change with testosterone, so they are not men. After all that crying beyond tearing up becomes less frequent and crying or sobbing in general become something that is encouraged to be repressed by society. I also think with the mind changing is that what triggers you to cry becomes different.

Yep, men and women are not the same. It's well known estrogen makes you more emotional. People seem to forget humans are animals, in nature things are't equal or even fair. A lot of societies gender roles are backed by science. There are chemicals in tears that lower testosterone. Obviously it's beneficial for the species to have men cry less. A flock of crows recently killed off a weak crow in my yard. Animals have an instinct to reject the weak. This instinct isn't lost in humans. Children cry about the same. Once puberty kicks in the changes occur and adults aren't supposed to cry like children, especially men.