Quote from: dalebert on August 16, 2012, 01:25:55 AM
That particular way of describing it was jarring for me. I probably would have said something like "parts that are out of alignment with societal expectations for one's perceived gender" instead of "wrong". Wrong is very subjective.

Again, I did make sure to add that it was part of my opinion, and honestly, I do think that's the correct word for my feelings on the subject.

To answer the OP: I don't really know any trans folks in real life save for one of my old patients, but I thought she was just a sweetheart. Would I feel awkward? If they were weird, sure. If they were normal, then no. I tend to get along fine with most people. I don't make it a habit to associate with one type of person over the other. If I like someone, I don't really care what their gender/genital status is. I think its fine if someone is out and proud trans or stealth, and again, as long as they weren't jerks or creepers, we would probably get along fine.

I did get in touch with other trans guys through my therapist and we talked a few times, but I couldn't stand them. They were ... we had different opinions on what was important. They were so focused on being trans and everything that it entailed. Its just another part of my life to me, and I have navigated it just fine for 25 years. I have more in my life than my gender/genital disagreements. They were also a little elitist in that since I wasn't so horrified every day about my body that I couldn't do anything, I wasn't "trans enough". So if they were like that, I wouldn't want to talk to them. Not because they make me feel dysphoric or anything like that - I just can't stand uppity/hyper sensitive people.

It's interesting reading everyone's perspectives on this.  Since first posting this I have met several other trans guys who are not as out and proud, and I enjoy hanging out with them.  I think that rather than being around trans people, it was the talking about it that made me uncomfortable.  I just don't want to have my physical issues brought into my social life.

This thread makes me wonder what role visibility has in societal acceptance? I think that this is a very important discussion.

What's the parallel between  "looking for attention" and "talking about what is in their pants" and homophobic comments like "keep it to yourself" and "no need to wear your sexuality on your sleeve" like it's something to be ashamed of and hide?

Or is there no connection at all because the goal for most trans people is to be stealth?

Is social acceptance even important when it's just a "medical condition"?   How does this tie-in with violence against trans people and  things like judges refusing name changes when they know it's for a transition and over-all discrimination and marginalization? Who is responsible for helping to break it down and prevent it and work towards real change?

I personally don't have a clue where I stand on all this - my knee-jerk reaction is to think people should keep personal business to themselves much like the opinion JasonRX is expressing, but what is the lasting impact of that? Do we have any responsibility to "come out" much like gay people have over-time to work towards normalization?

I cringed at Chaz Bono and hated that he put himself out there as the face for all trans people. Should I have? Isn't it better that someone is talking about it at all? To have that conversation and highlight the prejudice inherent in a lot of people's first opinions about trans people?

I mean, ultimately I guess it does to come down to personal choice and people that want to be activists should do it and people who want to be stealth should do so. But would all trans people be better off in the future if more people were open about it?

^ THIS.

This is what I have been trying to say, in a number of places, for ages. But I couldn't find the words and you hit it on the head as far as I am concerned.

I have some issues being around people who, as transmen, live as if they are different from any man. In my own transition, all I have ever wanted is just to be one of the guys. But have never been able to, until I got a bit into T. Now that I am getting closer to just being me, who is a man, I crave that normalcy even more.

BUT I do think I may have some insight into the questions you posed, at least if we are comparing gay and trans. The challenge is that many people promote a politics of difference. That being gay or lesbian is somehow different than being straight. At the end of the day, it isn't - in my opinion, we need to promote the notion that love is simply love, regardless of the sex and/or gender of those involved. Similarly, a transman is no different from any other man, barring some socialization, extra challenges, and other experiences.

But it's a hard line to walk sometimes.

Quote from: spacerace on August 16, 2012, 07:05:26 PM
homophobic comments like "no need to wear your sexuality on your sleeve" like it's something to be ashamed of and hide?

I don't believe that is a homophobic comment.  Sexuality isn't something you have to hide, but what relevance is it in 99% of interactions?

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 16, 2012, 11:46:43 PM
I don't believe that is a homophobic comment.  Sexuality isn't something you have to hide, but what relevance is it in 99% of interactions?

I should have emphasized my point clearer - I was referring to when people jeer at same sex couples holding hands and make those comments. Or when people see others they believe to be gay out in public and make those comments.  "Keep your business in your bedroom"  "They should keep their sexuality to themselves instead of flaunting it".   These comments tend to mean gay people should be shameful and hide their deviance. Remember just under half the country thinks gay people shouldn't even have the right to marry.

Edit:  I know comparing these comments to disliking openly trans guy talking about their gender and transition is a bit of a hyperbole to say the least. But how much talking about it is okay? Do we need to talk about it?

What about when closeted gay people used to dislike it when other gay people around them came out because it they felt it could have compromised their own position and drew unwanted attention? Is that not the exact same conversation we are having now when we talk about people needing to keep their business to themselves? Think about this in context of how much better it is now overall in terms of acceptance for gay people once more and more people came out publicly and can now be comfortable without fear of "being found out".

Now, it's relevant because visibility is one of those things that eventually breaks down the barriers and helps work towards acceptance. What may or may not be relevant is whether or not this even applicable to trans people choosing not to be stealth to dismantle transphobia by exposure. What other ways are there? Is it even important? That's the real question.

I don't know how to resolve this, by the way. Additionally, being around other trans people does make me uncomfortable and super-aware of my own shortcomings.I get flustered and awkward. Also, my goal is to be stealth so I don't have to worry about being trans defining me in every social situation.

However - I can't help but think hiding and normalizing ourselves into the gender binary perpetuates targeted trans violence, transphobia in general,  people's revulsion and mis-understandings. Hiding doesn't solve workplace discrimination, legal barriers to name/gender marker/birth certificate change, health insurance denials. If even we are bothered by being around other trans people and think it's something to keep hidden and locked away, how can we ever expect any of the above to change?

I'm not calling anyone out by the way, I'm more just rambling at my own cowardice without implying it applies to anyone else. I'm especially not telling anyone that they shouldn't define it as a medical condition that is being treated and resolved. I also know that being stealth is crucial to safety in many circumstances, and that most people just want to transition and get on with their lives.

I think the problem is one only one person is out, like Chaz. It seems like a display almost. If there were thousands of people out it would be like being gay. No one would think that much about it. Of course, that's the person's decision. I am not out.

--Jay Jay

Trans people who are uncomfortable around other trans people are uncomfortable with themselves, IMO.

Another thing, without those "out and proud" people, most of us would never have realized that transition is possible. We still don't have equal rights in most states and we certainly aren't going to obtain equality if all of us are stealth.

Quote from: Chamillion on August 21, 2012, 03:23:13 PM
Trans people who are uncomfortable around other trans people are uncomfortable with themselves, IMO.

No, I just don't feel my medical condition is something to go around blurting out and don't want to hang out with people who thinking it is.

I'm perfectly fine with hanging out with guys who don't mention their history unless in private.

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 21, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
No, I just don't feel my medical condition is something to go around blurting out and don't want to hang out with people who thinking it is.

I'm perfectly fine with hanging out with guys who don't mention their history unless in private.

^This.

I do not befriend people based solely on whether or not they're trans. It doesn't make me a horrible person or someone who's insecure in himself. I just don't like to be around "out and proud" people. It's not my cup of tea.

I only really consider one guy at the trans center a friend. I like hanging around with them there, but I don't feel any desire to hang out with them otherwise. I think I'd just call them acquaintances that I see in a certain context and not others. Some of them are much younger than I am, and I find the age difference in real life is more of a border than their trans status. Somehow the age difference doesn't make a difference on line.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 21, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
No, I just don't feel my medical condition is something to go around blurting out and don't want to hang out with people who thinking it is.

I'm perfectly fine with hanging out with guys who don't mention their history unless in private.

Just seeing this now, apologies.

I feel the same way, I don't mention my trans status if it's not relevant, and 99% of the time it's not. I'm as out with it as I am about my heritage being mostly British... meaning I don't hide it but it doesn't come up all that much. I just didn't understand the ideas in this thread that all out trans people are constantly talking about it and outing people, I wouldn't want to hang out with someone like that either. My point was only that if someone is uncomfortable around a known trans person, then they are insecure in themselves. So clearly that isn't you, because you don't have an issue being around other trans people, you just don't like being around annoying people.

Quote from: Lee on April 21, 2012, 02:48:40 AM
I dance in an LGBT group, and there is one guy there whom I talk to from time to time.  He is the only other trans person I interact with regularly, and I find myself becoming more and more uncomfortable around him. 

I think that it's not really him, as he is rather easy to get along with.  Instead, it seems to be more that he is a constant reminder of my own body, and I don't really want to be talking or thinking about my gender when I'm doing things that actually help get my mind off of it.  Because of this I have a tendency to avoid him, and I feel like an ass for doing that.

Does anyone else have this issue around other trans guys?  I know that I would feel bad if I knew someone was avoiding me because of my gender, but I don't know what would be a better approach.

Have you tried talking to him and telling him how you feel?