Okay, personally my answer is Yes, I belive people under 18 should be allowed to have top surgery,
But I always hear alot of people agenst this , also transfolks..

so what is your personal opinion.

I would say yes, as long as they're mentally capable of understanding the risks, what it means for them and who they are.  I know it would make my life a lot different if they did let people under 18 have top surgery and I can't imagine how brilliant that would be, seeing as I'm waiting until I can medically transition to do anything about being trans.  I can see why people say they shouldn't because people under 18 might not always understand the risks and if it's what they really want, but I don't think age is necessarily a good indicator of how mature someone is.  I think it should be reviewed on a case by case basis.

while I respect everyone's decision...if I was a doctor, I wouldn't perform top (or bottom) surgeries on anyone under 18.

I've seen too many people change their minds about transitioning during my own transition and the majority of those who changes their minds are younger people.

So...I wouldn't do it as a doctor.  As a parent? I probably wouldn't allow it either.

Quote from: Annah on August 22, 2012, 08:40:12 AM
while I respect everyone's decision...if I was a doctor, I wouldn't perform top (or bottom) surgeries on anyone under 18.

Sadly, we live in a very litigious society, so that's probably just plain sensible for the doctor's own protection. If someone does have regrets later, which happens sometimes, I'm sure this would give them ammo in court.

It seems more important to me that younger people have access to hormones or at least the hormone blocking drugs. Seems like that could help to keep their chests smaller so they'd have better options when they are old enough for the surgery.

Yes, but I feel like there should be hoops to jump through to be sure they're serious about transition because like the last 2 people said, younger people tend to change their mind.

I'm thinking like they should be required to have RLE for x amount of time and see a therapist regularly for x amount of time. Not necessarily hormones because some people don't believe in that. . Okay I'm not exactly sure where I'm getting at, but I just feel like there should be a longer process for younger people.

As much as it would be a hassle, I think it would be necessary.

thanks for answering, I respect everyones answer,

I am going to say why I belive it should be posible for people less than 18, remember here I only speak of top surgery and not other kinds of surgerys..
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Being very young myself at transition I had got alot of damages for waiting to I turned 18..

I was 12 when I got out as trans, and I was refused threatment, both homones and surgery untill I turned 18.
it have been damagine alot of me,

first of all it had damaged my mentall healt to wait, I had suffered from very serious depressions, and side effects from depression, cut myself and tried suicide. as a result in not being able to get help. and just being in a situation only to "wait" this had not only infected me emotional, it has also infect my social life.

second, its also been infecting my body health, when I got top surgery last year I told my parrents I couldnt wait because my health where too bad. I had used bandage for many years, as I didnt had binders, and then after that I had used binders..
my skin have been damaged as a result and some mouth after surgery it actually started to peal off, as death skin, like I had been sunburned,
My back have also always been very bad, since I been walking bending so you couldnt see anything,
I got scars of my back as a result of bandage, and my lungs have been in a very bad quelety from a mix of bandage and bindings, when I was 16 it was so serious I thought I might die anytime, still I couldnt go out without at least a binder because it would put me in a suicide mode I didnt want.
I stopped doing any kinds of sport and physical activeties because my lungs hurted too much when I did so,

first after surgery I been able to work out again as normal people.
-
so this is my reason I think it should be legal, I agree that everyone is diffrent, and I do not think ever person who is under 18 is able or should be able to get surgery, getting top surgery is a big step, But I think for people who already have knowned for a long time and who is 100% sure and wellknowed, and where it really infect there life, then it should be posible..

there are transgenders who already know when they are at a very young age like 4 or 9 or 13... and to wait when your actually is ready can be a mental challenge. I agree I think homones and blockers is the first thing, because homones also help alot.

I may be completely wrong here but isn't there a chance of someone needing to have top surgery twice if they get it too young?

If someone gets top surgery before they've finished growing and then go ahead and have a growth spurt in the boob area it would have all been a waste of time.

Quote from: Jeatyn on August 22, 2012, 12:11:30 PM
I may be completely wrong here but isn't there a chance of someone needing to have top surgery twice if they get it too young?

If someone gets top surgery before they've finished growing and then go ahead and have a growth spurt in the boob area it would have all been a waste of time.

if you remove all of the breast tissue then theres nothing there to grow, which mean you dont will have to make it twice..

but everyone no matter age, can have to make it two times, of diffrent complications or reasons,
I think I will need to do it twice, im young, but I also know people who are in there 40-50 who had done it twice due to diffrent reasons.

Quote from: Jeatyn on August 22, 2012, 12:11:30 PM
I may be completely wrong here but isn't there a chance of someone needing to have top surgery twice if they get it too young?

If someone gets top surgery before they've finished growing and then go ahead and have a growth spurt in the boob area it would have all been a waste of time.

If the person is also on T or blockers then obviously none of the above would be a problem. But for those who aren't, I'm not sure about the technical details, but it doesn't seem to be a problem. There are some surgeons who do perform top surgery on people under 18 without having an issue.

As far as the thread's question, I would say yes, absolutely, people under 18 should be able to get top surgery if they want it. I generally feel there is already far too much red tape around the whole transition process, and people often use age as another way of trying to take the decision making process away from trans people.

Quote from: Natkat on August 22, 2012, 10:07:20 AM


first of all it had damaged my mentall healt to wait, I had suffered from very serious depressions, and side effects from depression, cut myself and tried suicide. as a result in not being able to get help. and just being in a situation only to "wait" this had not only infected me emotional, it has also infect my social life.

Same here. My mental health was dramatically effected; severe depression, self harming, suicide attempt etc, this all due to the strain of being told nothing could be done untill I was 18 (and then, once I turned 18, the clinic I was at, decided to change their policy and start allowing 16 and 17 year olds to be seen and treated!! This was so they dont "go through the same wait as me". That added to my stress :/ )
   However, I have seen a few young people, who seem to just decide that theyre trans, after having known that transition existed at all for a few weeks, have the money to just jump right into it without seemingly thinking about it too much. It seemed more of a decision, than a need, which I dont like, so I agree that there should be certain "hoops" to jump through.  But these hoops exist anyway.
   I did meet a guy who, at 18 was post top surgery, had been on T since 15/16, and was going in for meta. He looked amazing, lived  his life perfectly stealth and was very happy. I was a year older than him, and "came out"/sought to begin my transition, several years before him, and I couldnt help but think I should be as far as him. (Which I know was an unhelpful, wrong way to view things).
   Aslong as the person follows the right path, with the right boxes being ticked, such as RLE etc, (this way things cant be rushed) I dont think whether someone is 16 or 19 should matter too much.

Quote from: conformer on August 22, 2012, 09:49:31 AM
Yes, but I feel like there should be hoops to jump through to be sure they're serious about transition because like the last 2 people said, younger people tend to change their mind.

I'm thinking like they should be required to have RLE for x amount of time and see a therapist regularly for x amount of time. Not necessarily hormones because some people don't believe in that. . Okay I'm not exactly sure where I'm getting at, but I just feel like there should be a longer process for younger people.

As much as it would be a hassle, I think it would be necessary.

This pretty much.

My view is it should be up to the person.  I'm sure some people are ready for top surgery before the age of 18, and I think they should be allowed to go for it.  Definitely the person should understand what they're doing and should be sure it's right for them, and their therapist should be involved in helping them make a decision they'll be happy with, but overall I think the option should be there for those who want it.

Quote from: Annah on August 22, 2012, 08:40:12 AM
while I respect everyone's decision...if I was a doctor, I wouldn't perform top (or bottom) surgeries on anyone under 18.

I've seen too many people change their minds about transitioning during my own transition and the majority of those who changes their minds are younger people.

So...I wouldn't do it as a doctor.  As a parent? I probably wouldn't allow it either.

^This. Kids can be fickle and their "identities" are apt to change from one year to the next. I'm not discounting folks experiences and a lot of trans folks say they knew for years. But, I have three brothers in high school. There is no way I would do surgery of the 15 year old. He has already been through two phases this year (skater and bisexual) and just started his third (straight gangbanger). When I was in high school I knew plenty of girls who were "lesbians" because it was the in thing at my school. All of them but one ended up happily married and admitted later they were trying to be cool. Kids switch identities about as often as they do their clothing styles. Even the 18 year old is pushing it. He's a great young man I love him dearly, but he isn't emotionally mature enough to make a choice that could affect him for the rest of his life. On the flip side of top surgery - he is so terrified of being disowned because he is gay that if someone offered him the change to "be normal" and he had been pushed away from the family, he might at least try to take it.

Teenagers are not supposed to like how they look. It comes with being a teen. I wouldn't sign off on a 16 year old girl getting breast implants, or a 13 year old getting a nose job because they don't like it. The only difference would be if it was an actual medical life/death situation. I know lots of people feel like if only they had had top surgery sooner they would be better off, but I'm taking the not popular opinion. Don't get me wrong, I understand the crap comes along with having something that your brain tells you shouldn't. I totally get it and I have the scars on my chest to prove it. I spent a year drunk because I didn't know what to do. I totally get it. But, I'm still glad I had to wait, even if it meant that I my teenage years sucked. At least I am sure about my choice and in hindsight, everyone's high school years sucked. Its like a law of nature.

I definitely think it should be allowed, but i think its important that they have strict guidelines for it.
I had top surgery a month before I turned 16. I'm so glad I did. It would be so much harder for me to live my life like a normal guy if I hadn't. I really needed top surgery to be happy.
I don't think people give teenagers enough credit. Sure, sometimes we make mistakes, but that doesn't magically change on your 18th birthday. the only thing that changes is a number and the fact that mommy and daddy dont control everything you do anymore.

Yeah because some kids are coming out very early these days-- not like years ago. So you could have a kid who has been out since age 6 or even earlier. I *think* , though I am not sure, that if the kid is taking hormone blockers they won't need top surgery (Perhaps Raging Shadow can clarify this one). But sometimes kids are not able to take hormone blockers. Some have been in therapy since early childhood. So just practically you could have a kid who knows and is sure very early on.
You could also have parents approve the surgery (this would probably have to the case anyway).

I also see the life saving benefits of this in some cases.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: mangoslayer on August 22, 2012, 08:58:15 PM
I don't think people give teenagers enough credit. Sure, sometimes we make mistakes, but that doesn't magically change on your 18th birthday. the only thing that changes is a number and the fact that mommy and daddy dont control everything you do anymore.

Its not that I don't give all teenagers no credit. I lived on a college campus until I was 24 and I had several friends who were 18. I volunteered to work with local high school students at several events at the state and local level. I'm not saying that there are not some who are mature enough. I'm saying for *most* of them, they don't have the life experience needed to make a huge decision like HRT or surgery. Most teenagers don't understand the ramifications on their futures because everything is affected. Relationships, jobs, scholarships, health, fertility, potentially having children, if they will be able to marry in the future - not many 16 year olds have that type of foresight. I'm not saying no 16 year old does - I left home at 16 and started paying my own bills. I'm saying a lot of them. And I am certainly not saying that adults don't make mistakes. Everyone does - I do and every other adult does. We are human. We wise up with age and experience, but no one is perfect.

Quote from: aleon515 on August 22, 2012, 10:05:04 PM
Yeah because some kids are coming out very early these days-- not like years ago. So you could have a kid who has been out since age 6 or even earlier. I *think* , though I am not sure, that if the kid is taking hormone blockers they won't need top surgery (Perhaps Raging Shadow can clarify this one). But sometimes kids are not able to take hormone blockers. Some have been in therapy since early childhood. So just practically you could have a kid who knows and is sure very early on.
You could also have parents approve the surgery (this would probably have to the case anyway).

I also see the life saving benefits of this in some cases.

--Jay Jay

And in those extreme cases, the parents make the choice based on what the child needs to be happy. But, in those cases the parents and the health care professionals work very closely to determine what needs to be done. If a teenager is totally fine aside from gender issues, and the parents and doctors agree that its a life saving treatment, sure. But from my perspective, plenty of the folks who came before us were able to hold off until they were of legal age. Waiting until they were sure/legally adults didn't kill them - its not like waiting until you are having heart failure to go to a doctor.

To give an example - I came out to a kid that was 17, a freshman at my old uni. This young girl was not trans at all. She said that she thought it would be fun to transition because it sounded cool to overstep gender norms. A lot of kids want to be different. A lot *people* want to be different. So, if we are going to say that yes, minors can get these life altering treatments, there needs to be one heck a screening process, and I would certainly hope that it required some sort of RLT. There are no take-backs - some of the changes are permanent.

This is just me though. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, naturally, and it is interesting to see both sides of the argument. As an added note - I'm not debunking anyone or trying to fight. I just love a good debate. I'll even argue against things I believe in for the fun of the conversation, so don't take what I'm saying as being a personal attack.

I think that looking back and thinking how mature people are at a certain age always gives the wrong answer.  If I think about a thirteen year old and how mature they are I'd never believe that they could know without a shadow of a doubt that they were into women or that they were capable of having a weekend job (sorry I can't think of any better examples, I can barely remember what life was like at thirteen now), but if I think about what I was like a thirteen I realise that they can be a lot more mature.  There are of course those who really aren't mature enough and do make things up, but then there are people who do know about the long term implications of having something like top surgery and would be ready to have it and live life as male in the future and know what that entails (as much as any person does.)

I think it's all down to the person and how much of life they've experienced in their lives, people who have an easy sheltered life tend to be less mature/more interested in being "cool" than those who've grown up in the "real world" imo, so age is a pretty useless indicator.  It should have a really strict set of conditions for having it below 18, but if you're mature enough then there should be no reason for you not to have something which is going to improve your mental and physical health dramatically.

I actually find it slightly offensive - although I know you have valid reasons for saying it - to hear people say that under 18's aren't mature enough to know something like this for sure or able to just be mature, because I feel like I am, and a lot of other people feel like I'm older than I actually am.  I don't know why, probably because I speak to fourty-somethings more than I do people my own age but I do.

Quote from: Alex000000 on August 23, 2012, 03:13:01 AM


I actually find it slightly offensive - although I know you have valid reasons for saying it - to hear people say that under 18's aren't mature enough to know something like this for sure or able to just be mature, because I feel like I am, and a lot of other people feel like I'm older than I actually am.  I don't know why, probably because I speak to fourty-somethings more than I do people my own age but I do.

I don't think it's offensive at all to think that 13 year olds will go through phases of life.

1. I was 13. I still remember it vividly. Everything I wanted to do back is drastically different today.
2. I've been a children's pastor and counselor for children ages 8 through 17. From a clinical and counseling point of view I have seen more children who change on a whim than those who literally stayed the same throughout their teen into early adult life.
3. Having been involved in the trans community for about 4 years, i have encountered and talked with many teen transgenders. It would be conservative to say that about half of them are still "transgender."
4. I have a 13 year old son. Sorry, if he wanted surgery that wasn't life threatening I would say no. I wouldn't think twice about it. He goes through phases just like any other 13 year old and I will not test fate on surgery at that age...especially since it's permanent.

It's ok that you are offended and a lot of younger people do get offended...but as adults, we have been there before.

This is one time I would be happy to be guided by the SOC.  Let's face it, it can be hard enough to get approval as an over 18 year old. 
If they meet all the requirements then age shouldn't have anything to do with it.  If the lad is on T, then hopefully their body will develop the way they want as well.

Karen.

Quote from: Annah on August 23, 2012, 07:28:36 AM
I don't think it's offensive at all to think that 13 year olds will go through phases of life.

1. I was 13. I still remember it vividly. Everything I wanted to do back is drastically different today.
2. I've been a children's pastor and counselor for children ages 8 through 17. From a clinical and counseling point of view I have seen more children who change on a whim than those who literally stayed the same throughout their teen into early adult life.
3. Having been involved in the trans community for about 4 years, i have encountered and talked with many teen transgenders. It would be conservative to say that about half of them are still "transgender."
4. I have a 13 year old son. Sorry, if he wanted surgery that wasn't life threatening I would say no. I wouldn't think twice about it. He goes through phases just like any other 13 year old and I will not test fate on surgery at that age...especially since it's permanent.

It's ok that you are offended and a lot of younger people do get offended...but as adults, we have been there before.

You have to bear in mind that this procedure isn't a choice for some, and that it's more of a necessity - like a do or die situation.
If I noticed that my son came home from school everyday, with a sadness in his eyes and talked about life as if he was on the brink of taking his own, I would do anything in my power to help him, even if that meant considering surgery. I certainly wouldn't let him suffer through a puberty he felt he wasn't even supposed to be going through - personally, I think that would almost be an equivalent to abusing/torturing your child.
    I think people also forget that age is just a number and sometimes has very little to do with how mature someone is. I've met people who are well into their twenties that seem much less mature than some teenagers I met.