Experience means more to people than words.  SRS is an experience.  People only ever have SRS once in their lives with one surgeon so generally they rate their experience based on all their other SRS experiences meaning, they have nothing to compare their experience to.  If they feel good about their experience then often times they will say, "So and so is the best SRS surgeon and I am so happy with my results, you should go to him/her.

To someone who has never had a vagina, the vagina tends to be mysterious.  It is especially interesting because it is so organic, It can have a lot of variation however generally it follows some anatomical rules.  I have been an artist all my life and I graduated from one of the art institutes, even so it took me a while to begin to understand the basic anatomical rules or anatomy of the vulva.

M2F. They say that when a male is with a woman she is the only woman in the world.  In other words when a male is with a woman the male does not compare her to other women, rather he experiences only her.  When I first had SRS having gone from a male genital geography to a female genital geography I was unable to compare my vulva to the vulvae of other women and when other people told me, "Oh there is a lot of variation."  I latched onto that and made myself believe it, even though I knew deep down that things were seriously wrong.

I would say do your research.  Familiarize yourself with the vulva and learn to compare the work of the surgeon to the vulva's of natal females.  Before you have SRS, not afterwards like I did.

Obvious problems I noticed with my results were...

1.  Serious lack of symmetry.
2.  Skin sewed back together, too tight in some places, with other areas that were too loose    causing folds of skin hanging off the body like giant skin tags.
3.  Very poorly done stitching causing exaggerated scarring.
4.  Too much removal of tissue in perineal area causing vaginal vault to gape and to be exposed.
5.  Urethra and clitoris touching with urethra not directly under clitoris but with urethra actually to the right of the clitoris.
6.  Wide inner labia (thick) that only projected about a 1/16th of an inch or less.
7.  No frenulum.

My vagina was so ugly that I actually had people tell me how ugly it was.  The part that upset me was knowing they were right.  I had a woman say that my vagina looked like a turkey neck, if you can imagine a turkey neck and how the skin looks like it is dripping off the neck of the turkey, that is how my outer labia looked (outer, not inner).

What bothered me the most was how Marci and her staff considered my results to be a grand success.  But Marci exposed herself as a liar when she told me I wasn't experiencing necrosis to one of my inner labia, when it was obvious that I was.  Also Marci only spent about six minutes total with me after the procedure, during my 9 day recovery period in the hospital.

Don't listen to what people say.  Do your research and find examples of the surgeons work.  Make a serious effort to familiarize yourself with the vulvae of natal women.

If Marci Bowers was an artist I would say that she is still struggling with pencil sketches.  She is still learning how to look at something and reproduce it on paper.  She has yet to learn anything about texture, light and shadow, color or composition.  When I look at her "pencil sketches" it is obvious that something is out of whack because her perception is off.

When my girlfriend had SRS with Suporn about ten years ago I noticed amazing symmetry and everything was in the right place and more importantly everything was there, except for the clitoris, I couldn't find her clitoris.  It was down in a pocket of skin, hidden.  More recently when I saw a friend's results from 2-3 years ago I nearly began crying.  Her results were so beautiful and amazing.  Suporn had created in her a perfect vagina, un-labored, balanced and integrated. A true artist does not simply reproduce something.  A true artist takes something and makes it more beautiful.  It was like Suporn took all the best attributes of various vulvae and incorporated them into a masterpiece.  Does he always get a result like this?  No artist produces a masterpiece every time but when you set a Rembrandt against a Polly Robinson you can begin to visually separate success from attempt.

Not worth the risk for me, then. Unless I really get dysphoric with my lower part, I'm keeping the monster in its place.

Why, what little thing did you separate out of what I said and put all of your focus on?  That an artist doesn't produce a masterpiece every time?  Over the years Ford has produced a lot of Mustangs and some of them are way cooler looking than others but they are all Ford Mustangs.

If you are worried about not getting the most beautiful vagina in the world and if that is the reason for saying you aren't going to have SRS then perhaps I need to delete my post and re-write it to better express what I intended to say.

Something else to consider, what will it matter in eighty years?  We all have less time than we imagine.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about the aesthetic part. Since I won' be able to pay for everything and I would have to go with the social security free one,the "good looking" part does not matter a lot to me. My hands won't be femenine, nor my bulky legs, my breast will be tiny and my neck long and thick. An unnatural looking vagina would go quite OK with the rest.





The "necrosis" thing is what made me reconsider. I've been hearing things not about aesthetical, but complications, infections, one conduct that almost closed for a person, an urethra that was pointing to the incorrect side making a mess in the bathroom... I can read more and find that even Suporn can screw up with functional things.


What has made me reconsider is that this is a a serious life changing operation that not only you need to be 100% sure that you truly need this, but you need to be aware of the risks and problems it can imply. Safety and health weights more in my scale. Plus, I am not binary, and more transgender than transexual. The only point I see for taking this risk is if I felt that an incomplete body was going to alienate me from society. For me this is 50/50. I could be interested on it, but if I can live with what I have and be happy, I don't need it (yet). I mean, I hate my body and face with all my heart, I curse the T running on my organism and how it has changed me... but I'm quite ok with my penis. It is functional in my daily life, it's a part of me and it does not look very alien. I feel that I should be glad for not requiring an important surgery to be happy. For now, let's see if in three years I reconsider it if I get to completely feel like a woman.


Hope I have explained myself... Oh, BTW, I am almost asexual, so I am not very concerned about employing any genitalia at this moment. I feel more like the Ken doll. And I have a severe dislike for men, so unless that changed with time, I don't have a lot of use for a new set of genitalia.


Edit: Sure, the aesthetic part is a bit important, but... If I can't pay, I would have to take what they offer. What I don't want is something that will affect the quality of my daily life, be painful when I walk or do sports... Not everything is sex and love for me.

For me just being rid of the testes made SRS worth it.

Using my previous anatomy for sex caused me some serious depression.

I would have been better without anything down there than with what I had.

Complications are pretty rare and most people aren't able to distinguish a Rembrandt from a Polly Robinson anyway which explains the AMC Pacer, Gremlin and Matador, not to mention the Hornet.

I feel like transition should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary.  Transition can create a new set of problems and it has to be worth it to give an individual the resolve to overcome those new problems.  If you are living as your true sex 24/7 and you are happy that is all that matters.  I need to incorporate non-trans reality with my own and I do that by fitting into non-trans reality.  I had to have the right body to do that.  There was a time when I felt happy just being in a relationship with another woman who was transitioning but by the very definition of transition that relationship was transitory. (It wasn't going to last).

I can pick out a million things that are wrong with my body, well at least a hundred or so anyway.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 24, 2012, 07:07:16 PM
For me just being rid of the testes made SRS worth it.

Using my previous anatomy for sex caused me some serious depression.

I would have been better without anything down there than with what I had.

Complications are pretty rare and most people aren't able to distinguish a Rembrandt from a Polly Robinson anyway which explains the AMC Pacer, Gremlin and Matador, not to mention the Hornet.

I feel like transition should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary.  Transition can create a new set of problems and it has to be worth it to give an individual the resolve to overcome those new problems.  If you are living as your true sex 24/7 and you are happy that is all that matters.  I need to incorporate non-trans reality with my own and I do that by fitting into non-trans reality.  I had to have the right body to do that.  There was a time when I felt happy just being in a relationship with another woman who was transitioning but by the very definition of transition that relationship was transitory. (It wasn't going to last).

I can pick out a million things that are wrong with my body, well at least a hundred or so anyway.

FWIW, I am learning so much from reading your posts. Hope to put these lessons into practice, one day.

Inside me I think I know that SRS is the  final goal and sooner or later I would do it, but... It's too difficult to accept. For the moment I have managed to accept that I want to change my body, face, the way people see me... But that last stage is too difficult to decide for me. Removing the testes would be enough for me and is something I wolud do quickly for health reasons, but the vaginoplasty... Giving away a part of your body is something that requires consideration.


Not to mention that I would not know what to do with a neovagina... Unless I start to be interested in men at a more concious level, I am still stuck in lesbian mode.


Or maybe... I guess the wall between SRS and me is that I don't want to do it unless they can guarantee a decent result, bot aesthetically and functionally. I've never liked taking risks, and If I know myself to have an incredible hate for specific parts of my body, I don't want to think about what can happen If I am stuck with a hideous set of genitalia. At least what I have now looks decent. If only it worked decently...

I am sure Marci Bowers has gotten better even though I wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

Just take your life one day at a time.  No reason to get up in your head or try to make decisions for the future.  I try to stay out of my head, sometimes I succeed.

Up until the last few days I was inclined to think I would be happy with an Orchiectomy for a number of reasons.  I am beginning to get a few emotional and psychological issues sorted, and have noticed that I am beginning to reconsider my sexuality as a result. 

I have no doubt that I am a woman, but I am beginning to feel that I was rejecting the idea of an attraction to men as a the result of conflating  homophobic bullying when younger, unsatisfactory sexual experiences while trying to disentangle my gender from sexuality, and a few other issues. 

Subconsciously I was saying that men had hurt me in the past; gay men don't want to have sex with women, so no problem there; and straight men don't want a partner with a vagina, so if I don't have SRS I won't have to worry about being hurt, because straight men won't want me either.   Never having been in a Lesbian relationship, and hurt in such, I will therefore be safe.  Obviously not true, but then it's the subconscious we are dealing with here.  Logic doesn't apply.   
Now that I am feeling more comfortable with the idea of sex with a straight guy, as well as with women,  some of the rejection of surgery is receding as well.  Whether my phobias about any form of surgical procedure will ever totally disappear I can't say, but  my subconscious seems to have given up one objection at least.

Karen.
PS. I always thought the Rambler Hornet was one of the few American cars that was comparable to the local product, and looked half decent as well.

Being female is something that can happen on many levels.  Some females never transition and spend their lives living as male.  Some females transition socially but not sexually.  Some women have penises.  I want to be female on every level so that my interactions will always be authentic. Will I ever really have that on a meaningful level with someone I love?  I don't know.

Sometimes we want something because we can't have it.  What if we could have it, then what?

It will be interesting to see where this all goes.
Up until recently I was content being a woman with a penis, and possession of one by another woman was not an issue at all. On others it still isn't unattractive.
For myself though, I seem to have slightly opened a door I thought was shut forever, and have discovered that what is on the other side  may not be as bad as I thought.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 04:45:25 AM
I am sure Marci Bowers has gotten better even though I wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

Obviously I would never go, since I would be sticking with european or thai surgeons. I have nothing to do with the U.S.

The issue is... Being the "penis woman" is quite ok during the transition stage, when I am still in the middle, not that much interested in sex, etc... The problem is that I just come from 10 years of awkwardness and solitude, and I don't want to spend the remaining ten of my youth in the same way.

Let's say that I can find a romantic partner that would be OK with my "out of place" genitalia, be it a cis woman, or another trans person. Then I would not need it, if I have support and love from somebody. But what if I risk being alone and the same as usual, the "awkward friend" that is more of a variety show each time he appears? Then I am pretty much ->-bleeped-<-ed up and I would go with SRS, just for safety.



I am in the weird point where I can live witch each genitalia. I'd love having a neovagina but I don't hate the oscar mayer as much as to think about self castration. The deciding point would be:

a) If after completing the rest of transition steps I feel whole or not.

b) If the "incomplete" status is again blocking me from having a normal social life. I am too afraid of being alone again and there Is when I could risk depression and suicidal thoughts.

I had relatively high levels of both testosterone and oestrogen before starting hrt. The main thing that's shifted for me is that I feel no sense of urgency with anything in my transition, and almost no need to do anything more than "part time". I've even seriously reconsidered my intentions for SRS. My libido has changed and my preferences seem to have come undone, or completely opened up.

There were some weird hiccups starting hrt and at the moment, it feels like there's more testosterone in my system again. And since this latest adjustment, with the increased sensation of testosterone, I'm a bit more confused but I know that actually I can't go back.

Despite the lack of urgency, I know for me there is one path and what Noey has said in this thread to date has really resonated with me, and the following in particular:

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 22, 2012, 01:45:20 PM
SRS and transition allowed me to be myself.  However, in my own experience being myself was not something I was entirely born as.  Being myself was a growing and maturing process much like what typical men and women go through.  For me being a woman was something I had to grow into.  I had the seed of it planted in me but it had to grow, mature...  It wasn't until I was able to be perceived as female, in the streets and in the sheets that I was able to begin to get the kinds of authentic experiences that would allow me to grow.

Looking back on what my life was like before I was able to pass as a female in the streets and in the sheets, for me it was like living in limbo-land as an eternal outsider.  I was never able to get any authentic experiences and I never had the satisfaction of 'being' my true self.  Instead being my true self was a protest and in some ways it still is because some people know I transitioned and they tell other people about me which causes my interactions to become forced and artificial.

I'm not there yet. I actually can't stand the in between state. Life as a guy will never work for me and wasn't ever going to. Anything less than full transition won't either. But that's just me.

And I've also discovered how many people have different interpretations and intentions. I have one close and very supportive friend who balked at the desire for SRS with respect to physical intimacy. When I mentioned bikinis she was all for it. (I didn't feel like get into tucking or anything like that.)

I am reminded of that quote from the Matrix Reloaded, "People can't see beyond a decision they are unable to understand.

I am not a very smart or independent person.  I was more like a human animal.  I was punished when I did wrong and after years of being punished whenever I did wrong I began to punish myself whenever I felt like I had let others down.  I was just thinking and I realized that I was never rewarded for when I did right.  My parents weren't big on rewarding and I never learned to reward myself.

I thought I would be happy having a penis as long as I could be with someone like my transitioning (pre-op) girlfriend.  But in order to live like that my social circle had the quality of an artificial environment.  I was pretty grossed out by SRS results.  I certainly wasn't attracted to SRS results.  After I had SRS I lived as a male for a full year.  I was too scared to go full-time.  Honestly I don't know how some of you people do it.

The way I came out was at a company party, I told the plant manager who I knew would tell everyone else.  I didn't work there, I was a supplier but I had to interact with lots of people who would soon know my secret.  I used that plant manager to overcome my fears.

Being a man or a woman is action, 'being', not a collection of things.  Some people collect things, surgeries, shoes...  Collecting isn't being, collecting is a substitute for being.  When I was young I used to collect all sorts of things.  I was trying to fill the dark empty void that was my life.

Women have a history of having been women.  When your history of having been a woman is living as a man to hide the fact that somehow you have always been female...  That isn't much of a history.  If you had all the surgeries, took all the hormones and changed your wardrobe but everyone knows you as so and so who transitioned, well my personal experience of that is it isn't much of a history of having been female and it's not much of a life.

"People can't see beyond a decision they are unable to understand."

I never had a life so I didn't know anything about living.  I didn't understand any of the things I talk about until they sorta whacked me upside of the head.  The first life-changing experience I had was ending up in a hotel room with a guy who had no idea I had transitioned.  He kept demanding to know if I was on birth control, threatening me saying if I got pregnant and tried to ruin his life how he would kill me.  I had just assumed he knew I was trans.

I wasn't able to understand how SRS and transition could change my life because I never had a life in the first place.  I never had anything of my own.  I had spent my entire life trying to please others and I had never been rewarded for being good.  My reward for being good was not being punished.

Transition allowed me to have the first authentic living experiences in my life, for the first time in my life I was alive and living.  I don't think I could have understood or appreciated if someone had tried to explain these experiences to me, I had to live them for myself in order to appreciate them and in order for those experiences to change my beliefs about myself and life. 

If I was just a guy who transitioned, a guy with boobs and a vagina and if I was only intimate with people who knew my internal dialogue then living like that would produce more of the same.  The experience of being a guy who looks like a girl in relationships with people who were willing to have sex with a guy who looks like a girl.  Fortunately life took the reins and did the driving for me because I would have spent the rest of my life driving in circles.

We are our experiences, they shape us and allow us to grow.  They say about small businesses that if your small business isn't growing it's dying.  That is true about small businesses and it's also true about people.  Stasis is not living.

I was very lucky because without my experiences I would be the same person I was before transition with a few accessories.  Having had the experiences that I have had the thought of living like that is no longer tolerable.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 05:39:22 PM
I certainly wasn't attracted to SRS results.  After I had SRS I lived as a male for a full year.  I was too scared to go full-time.  Honestly I don't know how some of you people do it.

Until now I was not able to realise it. I can now understand the amount of pain you have had to endure , and I wish I would have a tenth part of the courage and resolve you had to face life and take it back.

I'm glad there are so many amazing people on this forum.  Thank you ^_^ .

I am new here so I hope it is OK to express an opinion. I just discovered this board and would like to help others if possible. As background I had an orchiectomy 10 years ago. Don't get hung up on SRS, it is not the only option. Go with what feels right to that inner voice and dont let the phrases and conventional wisdom necessarily direct you one way or another. (with all due respect to that wisdom) it is not the only way. For some complete SRS will be mandatory for others like me no. 

I was lucky enough to hook up with a great therapist who really encouraged and challenged me to answer tough questions. I can tell you the orchiectomy was a great benefit to me and have never regretted one second. I dress as a man much of the time but live as a woman. I discovered clothes were really not relevant to who I am. Its how I feel that matters. Inside I feel like a woman and to men I act like one. I have lost all my arm hair etc and my skin has feminized. And I like it.   I still wear a bra and panties but thats because my breasts have grown quite a bit and need support for everyday living. I wear panties because well with nothing down their mens underwear simply doesn't fit.

I live in a world of emotions, compassion and yes I like chic flicks and often cry. It feels wonderful. Am I male, female, TS I don't know and quite frankly I am not sure It matters anymore. Maybe I am inbetween. I quit using labels because I found myself making up "feelings and thoughts" to fit in those labels and satisfy others. I am who I am and thats the place you must get to.  You must also take into account your spouse if any,  because if its a great relationship that is important to your mental health as well.  Lastly sexuality with yourself and partner are important to a healthy being. I am lucky my sex life is intact and I can orgasm although it is distinctly different and I much prefer my orgasms now vs then. I hope this helps you. Its about balance and you must find the balance that works for you.

I think most younger people who transition want to be able to have sexual relationships that are not GID evoking so SRS tends to be more important depending upon the age that one transitions.  Especially if a person wants to be able to draw from a larger pool of potential mates.

This is about "quality of life", nothing more.

I would assume you didn't like living as a man, so why go back to that? This isn't an either or thing. Just because you don't like how you feel on high E doses doesn't mean you aren't trans or should go back to living as a man. I would not want to get to where I never enjoyed sex/never had another orgasm just to fit into some prescribed notion of what we are supposed to do if we are "really trans".

If you're happy living as a woman on lower doses of E and no surgery, then just do that. I'm very happy where I am right now and don't plan to change just so I fit "this is what a real transexual woman would do" line. It's about making yourself happy, not what others think you should do.