I am told this quite a bit by family and friends who hang out with me: "You blend in so well, that makes things so much easier". It got me thinking... what if I didn't? Would the same people be so willing to hang out with me? I think this poll, along with peoples experiences would help us, and even outsiders that are curious of what we go through, better understand how important passing is (if it is important at all).

Honestly the first couple of months during my transition I believe I was more easily clocked by men but I was never harassed, either by the person that read me or the friends that are around me who know. As of now, I'm much more confident as men are treating me a little sweeter and I think I am rarely (if ever) clocked. Friends who know are very happy to bring me around and will not hesitate to do things like ask me to go to the ladies room with them or take photos etc.

I am from Shreveport, LA ... not exactly the mecca of acceptance!

By the way it might help to post where you are from, and if you consider it trans friendly.

If anything, and maybe due to post-apartheid, SA seems a VERY accepting place these days – my experience. If I pass and I seem to as a matter of course... I'm called "mama" by the locals, a sign of respect.
No one DARES to come ugly on to you. That is in the normal street and shop environment.
In bars, clubs, etc. I have no idea, I don't go there.
Restaurants are completely above board also.

Axélle

 I'm probably "clocked" rarely. I have never gotten grief over it in any case... I don't really blend well into society, but that's more my personal demons than trans-related business.

If I can not pass or could not pass I would not transition

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 26, 2012, 06:54:41 AM

I am from Shreveport, LA ... not exactly the mecca of acceptance!

By the way it might help to post where you are from, and if you consider it trans friendly.

Cullman, Alabama. Definitely not the mecca of free thought. Although it is a little like Saudi Arabia.

How big is the difference between rarely and occasionally? Nothing ever happens that indicates I'm being clocked so I really can't say how often it happens. I do however know I'm never given any grief.

I live in the capital city of Norway. It is a very gay friendly place. Trans-awareness is very low. People either don't care or know very little about it. I hardly ever see others and have never knowingly met or talked another trans person in this country. Not even at the GIC.

Come to think of it - HOW would we actually, REALLY know?!

I say... we don't. In fact as soon as you'd ask to verify HOW you are seen... you already gave away the 'game'.
So you cannot ask. Not really.

Would any cis-female ask others: "Errr, do you see me as a female, or...?"

Well, would anyone male OR female do that? No!

So, it is simply up to our very own perception of whether we pass - or are simply accepted by grace and tolerance.

Something to bear in mind... I think.
Axélle

Quote from: MariaMx on August 26, 2012, 09:27:13 AMI live in the capital city of Norway. It is a very gay friendly place. Trans-awareness is very low. People either don't care or know very little about it. I hardly ever see others and have never knowingly met or talked another trans person in this country. Not even at the GIC.

A still-persistent lack of public awareness about trans strikes me as an interesting factor in passibility. In my experience, many people are under the impression that transsexuals are either glamorous drag queens or Monty Python-style "cross-dressers"; or, with faith in the marvels of modern medicine, they imagine that sexual reassignment surgery is a magical transformation of a man into a completely-passable woman. I find people are often surprised to hear facts we take for granted, such as that men's breasts can naturally grow with estrogen or that the convincing production of a female voice is a matter of practice and not surgery.

In other words, people aren't always aware that transsexuals generally fall into a spectrum somewhere between Terry Jones in a dress and the stereotypically ideal cis-woman. With that in mind, when we're talking about trans-women with feminine bodies (breasts esp.) and voices, I suspect that quite a few of the "clocking" stares might actually be translated as "look at that striking/odd/tall/handsome woman" rather than "look, a transsexual."

for my part, I'm not on HRT and so when I get the "look" when I'm trying to pass it's almost certainly "there's a man in makeup + women's clothing." But I've had no hostility so far. I'm not even sure in my case the majority of people see transgender: they just think I'm cross-dressing, for whatever reason. I'm in a part of the UK with a very high student population, which I imagine allows for a great deal more acceptance than usual.

I don't have an option available for me. I've never been clocked, even in places where you'd expect to be clocked - like trans support groups, or queer-spaces. Not do to any particular skill on my own part. I got extremely lucky both with my genetics (like my voice never dropped) and with being born into an accepting upper-middle class family, which enabled me to access facial surgery on top of my lucky starting point. Well, in that way I got lucky with my genetics - I also have a fairly vile chronic pain condition, so you win some, you lose some.

And I do think there is a big difference in peoples' lives between 99% and 100% passability. My passing privilege is such that I don't ever have to think of it. And the rare times I've been misgendered, it's because I present as an andro queer girl, and they correct themselves (and get embarrassed) the instant they hear my voice or get a good look at my face. In a lot of ways I have the same experience as a cis person - I get to place the responsibility to gender me correctly on the shoulders of everyone else, whereas a lot of trans folk are forced to carry that burden themselves.

I think the combination of being passable, as well as being relatively young and attractive also makes it much, much easier for the few people who do know my trans status. It's easy to remember to gender me correctly. It's easy to see me as female. And I've never gotten any grief. One of the biggest concerns of my best friend before I transitioned was exactly what you are talking about: what happens when I go out with you? This way he never has to worry.

I've lived exclusively in major urban centers in Canada - about as accepting as it gets. And I see other trans folks out and about on a fairly regular basis. Heh, there's a trans woman dating my best friend's roommate. Awareness of trans people and issues is high in the environments I frequent.

Quote from: Axélle on August 26, 2012, 10:37:00 AM
Come to think of it - HOW would we actually, REALLY know?!

Dress like a boy. *shrug*

"Come to think of it - HOW would we actually, REALLY know?!"

--->

Dress like a boy. *shrug*

Oh yeah?

I'll be kindly given acceptance that way also...
My point? No way to REALLY find out.

They might just think I'm some old dyke or what ever...
Would they say so ever? YOU MUST BE JOKING!

Axélle

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 26, 2012, 10:41:42 AM
I don't have an option available for me. I've never been clocked... And the rare times I've been misgendered...they correct themselves...

I would guess that for all of us who have succeeded in being seen as female, on those rare occasions that we get misgendered, there is always a caveat, and when we react, people apologize. This experience is not unique.

I get looks that could be that I have been clocked.  Or maybe it is just my height (5'10").  But no one has ever said anything or done anything.

I do live in Portland, OR.  Which is a very acceptable community.

I feel like I pass when I'm not trying or worried about it, before hrt I'd get Ma'amed 90% of the time. I think my voice helps since I've never sounded like a guy. 

I am rarely clocked and then when I am clocked, it is always by a girl who has severe self esteem issues. I approched this subject to my therapist two years ago and her reply was "ding ding ding."

Apparently, when people can clock someone that can pass it is because that person is so preoccupied by how she looks, she can see any miniscule physical fault in others. So, if I ever got clocked today, I just feel sorry for the person because I know they have issues with their own selves.

When it comes to "Acceptance" vs "Passability", I used to be in the "I just want to be accepted" category. For me, that view has changed dramatically over the past two years. I want to be seen as just a normal girl doing her normal thing. I don't want to stand out or be different or "be special." There is utterly nothing wrong with that, but I don't want it.

My part time job doesn't know. Now, most of the Seminary doesn't know (as those who did had graduated), only my ordination board and my church Senior pastor knows. It has nothing to do with me being ashamed or whether or not they will accept me (because I know they would). It has to do with the fact that I put so much time, energy, money, and soul in being a girl...I just want to be a girl. I haven't gotten clocked in 2 years...and it's a good feeling.

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 01:39:57 PM
I am rarely clocked and then when I am clocked, it is always by a girl who has severe self esteem issues. I approched this subject to my therapist two years ago and her reply was "ding ding ding."

Apparently, when people can clock someone that can pass it is because that person is so preoccupied by how she looks, she can see any miniscule physical fault in others. So, if I ever got clocked today, I just feel sorry for the person because I know they have issues with their own selves.

That used to happen to me early on. It is like the women are telling themselves, she wasn't born a woman but looks prettier than me. Just think of how that feels. I have two sisters and I am much prettier than both of them even though, I am older. They can't deal. 

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 01:39:57 PM
My part time job doesn't know. Now, most of the Seminary doesn't know (as those who did had graduated), only my ordination board and my church Senior pastor knows. It has nothing to do with me being ashamed or whether or not they will accept me (because I know they would). It has to do with the fact that I put so much time, energy, money, and soul in being a girl...I just want to be a girl. I haven't gotten clocked in 2 years...and it's a good feeling.

This so much. I wish trans could just be like an ordinary nothing, but it's not. The truth is it does alter peoples' perception of you, and I just don't want to deal with that all the time. There is so much to me beyond being trans, I don't want to be reduced to a single facet of my identity and my history. I want to be allowed to be a whole person, and I feel like, at this point, the only way to do that is to protect my privacy.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 26, 2012, 11:50:15 AM
I would guess that for all of us who have succeeded in being seen as female, on those rare occasions that we get misgendered, there is always a caveat, and when we react, people apologize. This experience is not unique.

I was making a distinction between being misgendered as a masculine-of-center queer girl and being clocked as trans. They really aren't quite the same experience.

Quote from: Axélle on August 26, 2012, 10:37:00 AM
Come to think of it - HOW would we actually, REALLY know?!

So, it is simply up to our very own perception of whether we pass - or are simply accepted by grace and tolerance.

Something to bear in mind... I think.
Axélle

If you live in a place where no-one gets upset at the sight of a trans woman, then it is very difficult to find out. I had been living in a bit of a fantasy world thinking I was passable for a few months, when actually it turned out I wasn't really doing all that great, and everyone was just accepting instead. It took a long time to work out whether people knew or not. People give away whether they know or not by slight cues, such as women not touching or getting close to you and men not bothering to talk to you or flirt with you. Then there are the tactless ones who will make a joke, or the clueless ones who simply misgender you. I wish had the privilege of having people not know. I might never have that, in which case I may as well stay put here where most people don't care.

Ideally I'd have passability over acceptance (for myself at least) any day. I don't live in the same country as any of my family members, and if I manage to move to a different city there is a good chance that I'll be able to keep my past to myself...but only if I am 100% passable.

Quote from: Kadri on August 26, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
I wish had the privilege of having people not know. I might never have that, in which case I may as well stay put here where most people don't care.

Ideally I'd have passability over acceptance (for myself at least) any day.

I agree!

I live in Portland, Oregon which is known to be unusually tolerant of variation in people's appearance, presentation, lifestyle. I went full time very early in my transition because the opportunity presented itself, and because I really couldn't stand much longer presenting even as a very feminine, androgynous male. I didn't know if I would pass or how consistently, I just knew that I would be happier being myself to the world regardless of whether they could tell I was a woman born with a male body, or not.
Over time I have gone from expecting the worst and celebrating every moment when someone correctly gendered me, one good experience lifting me up for days, to expecting the best and dealing with sadness and discouragement whenever someone gives evidence that they consider me male or ambiguous, one bad experience bringing me down for hours or days. It is amazing how expectations can affect our happiness and how quickly we adjust to new circumstances.

Friday morning I got a call at 3 am from my stepdaughter, from the county jail. Long story, but she needed an adult to sign her out under their cognizance, taking responsibility for her obeying the terms of her release and showing up for court in a week. My wife lost her ID, so it landed on my shoulders to fetch her. Unfortunately it will be another week before my legal name and my ID will be female. So I went in drag. After three hours of dealing with the jail personnel, I was walking with my (very tomboyish) step-daughter and turned to her and said "this is the first and only time I have dressed like a man in four months, for anyone. you know how much I love you, right?" She stopped her still partly intoxicated ranting to say "Yes. Thank you. I should have called you first." At the jail, and later at the store, I was able to pass, barely, as a very feminine gay man. I was trying to look like my male self, but in a dozen ways I was still blaringly female and I take comfort in that.
    It was a huge relief when I got back home and could change for work, back to my authentic self. As I put on my wig, makeup, and feminine clothing, I could feel myself taking off a very uncomfortable disguise. Phew.

The guiding factor throughout my life has always been acceptance vs passibilty. Sure passing is great. Acceptance as just another woman meant so mch more.

Although these days I answered that I am very rarely clocked.... back 30+ years ago it was a ver different story. On top of that I was comming off practically a lifetime of being a target of ridicule, or worse, for being different. (No, trans had nothing to with that). Twice I tried and twice I stopped my part-time experiments at transitioning.

I was, and am hyper-sensitive. I now also have an infinet  ammount of self confidence compared to back then (albeit paper thin still right now). Yet through whatever magic I am accepted/treated as just any other woman in spite of the 30 or so reasons I can give you why not  . I gave up any desire to go full-time 30 years ago. These days... well if the excrement hit the air handler again, I will. Better a joyous life as a pauper than a souless life just scraping by 

Quote from: Kadri on August 26, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
If you live in a place where no-one gets upset at the sight of a trans woman, then it is very difficult to find out. I had been living in a bit of a fantasy world thinking I was passable for a few months, when actually it turned out I wasn't really doing all that great, and everyone was just accepting instead. It took a long time to work out whether people knew or not. People give away whether they know or not by slight cues, such as women not touching or getting close to you and men not bothering to talk to you or flirt with you. Then there are the tactless ones who will make a joke, or the clueless ones who simply misgender you. I wish had the privilege of having people not know. I might never have that, in which case I may as well stay put here where most people don't care.

Ideally I'd have passability over acceptance (for myself at least) any day. I don't live in the same country as any of my family members, and if I manage to move to a different city there is a good chance that I'll be able to keep my past to myself...but only if I am 100% passable.

What happens TO ME almost daily, that I'm simply being ignored since there is NOTHING ODD to look at. Or I get asked questions anyone would ask me if I was simply female... as I really am.
It's not a BIG DEAL situation, and I'm blessed really. If in doubt at all, I smile friendly and get friendly simles back in return. I think quite often by women that admire my outfit, legs, poise, --- and can see I'm NOT exactly a youngster.

This after 2 years HRT, 1 year SRS and 1 month partial FFS.

Well, no one can say I didn't try...  I went FT only 2 ½  years back.

Before that I was called a "handsome" man, no less, by some being gay in the closet. Like: "Oh, HIGH!!! Sweetie-pie!" .... I wouldn't have DARED!

Then as always, some things can come about easier than others...
Axélle