I know some people may not agree with this but I am attempting a "partial" transition, basically I am in a place (the military) where any outward signs of transition would be a problem. Before any of you voice any concerns for my career, I will be leaving the military in about a year, so it's not an issue, I just don't want the hassle involved in "coming out" to them. I figure I can explain away most of the effects of HRT but not breasts, so I am planning on taking a particular drug (apparently on these sites we can't use real names, anyone who wants to know can email me) to inhibit any breast growth, while the hormones "work their magic" so to speak. I got this idea from my experience as an amateur bodybuilder, it's used to stop gynecomastia in guys who are taking steroids.

So in theory, I should get all of the effects of the hormones sans breast growth, but I also want to maintain fertility, my GF (who is extremely supportive) and I plan on conceiving, we are already going to bank, no worries there. I do however have an idea, this also stems from my experience as a bodybuilder, there are two kinds of hormones that affect the testes, LH and FSH, Luteinizing Hormone and Follicular Stimulating Hormone, the first is the hormone that induces testosterone production, which is obviously undesirable. The second induces spermatogenesis, meaning sperm production, so in theory, I could supplement with FSH drugs and maintain fertility while still enjoying all of the benefits of the rest of HRT.

I am very interested in the internal chemistry of people, always have been, so these are my ideas for possibly solving these two issues, but thoughts are very welcome.

P.S. My greatest wish is female fat distribution, as I said I am an amateur body builder and as thus am extremely lean, around 5% body fat, I pretty much have no more fat to lose, and I am wanting to gain it all back in the right places, how long (in your girl's experience) until all of the delicious carbs I eat start being stored in my butt and thighs instead of my stomach. Thank you so much to anyone who responds. <3

Sounds way convoluted to me. Why not just go with an Anti-Androgen and call it a day? The popular flavor which is not available  in the US I found really kicks ass compared to the commonly perscribed one here

Depending on a few things, ie age, genetics, excersice, build... You could probably take E for a year and noone would really know, a year isn't long for breast growth so you could hide them. Your face should be a bigger concern, within a year your skin will be very pretty and your face will have softened a bit, possibly to the point that people would notice.... There is a small chance you'll grow huge breasts very quickly but as I understand it, that's not the norm.

Well, I can't really afford to grow any breasts. Actually, if I start to notice even the first signs of growth I will be stopping until I am out, we PT in thin T shirts and it would be impossible for me to hide even small breasts. As for just taking an anti androgen, won't that still shut down my sperm production and also possibly induce small amounts of breast growth? It seems like it causes both problems that I want to avoid without giving me anything I want. My face isn't really an issue, I don't think any of them will suspect I am taking estrogen just because my skin gets nicer or my face changes a bit.

I would start anti-androgens now and start estrogen 3-4 months before discharge. Don't mess around with the mishugina idea of feminizing but not growing breasts. And when you go full HRT just a eat a normal healthy diet, most women say the fat goes to the belly despite the HRT.

hormones is funny things and while its possible that you can take some feminising ones and not get breasts it might mean you don't get them to grow when and if you want to.
it is also possible that hormones may turn you off hetero sex and onto all those lovely soldiers around you.
One thing apart from growing a cute bottom that may give the game away is your pheromones may change to female as you take hormones and the guys in the next bunks will pick up on this plus any changes you do get so you may be in for an interesting time.
keep us informed.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 26, 2012, 01:25:59 PM
I would start anti-androgens now and start estrogen 3-4 months before discharge. Don't mess around with the mishugina idea of feminizing but not growing breasts. And when you go full HRT just a eat a normal healthy diet, most women say the fat goes to the belly despite the HRT.

Oh I'm not planning on binging or anything, I just don't eat carbs because they tend to be stored as fat. I was going to add carbs back in once I had a reasonable hope that they'll go to female places. Are you saying most don't experience any change in distribution at all? I'm only 26 so hopefully that may help a little I guess.

Quote from: Crystal_!17 on August 26, 2012, 01:37:08 PM
Oh I'm not planning on binging or anything, I just don't eat carbs because they tend to be stored as fat. I was going to add carbs back in once I had a reasonable hope that they'll go to female places. Are you saying most don't experience any change in distribution at all?

No, not at all. What I am saying is that if you try to add excess weight, it may go to your belly, instead of where you want it. And be careful because you will be burning fewer calories as your muscle mass decreases.

I thought she was talking about starchy carbs such as potatoes and bread. I eat a whole foods vegan diet so I eat a lot of carbs to keep the weight off but have to limit the starchy carbs.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 01:48:44 PM
Okay, carbs are not the devil incarnate like some people say they are. As long as you burn more than you consume, you will lose weight. I have a ton of carbs in my diet, but only am 8.5% body fat. Eat your fruits, vegetables, meat, etc. As long as you're not eating any processed junk and keeping up a good exercise regimen, you'll be healthy.

Also, don't take so many drugs. Just go on an anti-androgen for now and keep it simple. You can always deposit sperm in a sperm bank or simply adopt, if it comes down to that.

I am an amateur bodybuilder, I am pretty much up on how nutrients interact to perform certain desired functions. I maintain carbs at very low levels to maintain my fat at very low levels, there's actually quite a difference between 8.5% and 5%. Also, yes I only eat fruits and vegetables for my carbs, no breads, no pastas, etc.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Oh well, I am aware of the stigma on starchy carbs, but it's very unwarranted. I also am aware of the difference between 8.5% and 5% body fat. I could have a 5% body fat measurement, but I eat too much food for that. Carbs have nothing to do with it. I just like to have a balanced diet instead of worrying over petty measurements. I am strong and healthy. It's all that matters.

While calories in and calories out is the main thing in any diet. Carbs do act differently than protein and fat, they will induce the body to produce insulin, which serves as a signal to begin storing fat. Simple carbs like pasta and bread cause a larger insulin spike than complex carbs like vegetables, that's why I  don't eat them.

Cortisol also plays a role, cortisol + insulin = fat storage, cortisol levels are highest immediately upon waking, so eating breads for breakfast will almost certainly result in some fat storage, maybe not a lot if it's a smaller portion, but some.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 02:43:51 PM
Actually, insulin triggers storage of glycogen and transfer of glucose from the bloodstream into outer tissue. (Putting it simply). A lot of that whole "time you eat" stuff is a load of rubbish. You may be an amateur bodybuilder, but my biological science major classes teach me different than what you've learned.

Yes, I don't see how this is different than what I said, when the body stores glycogen, it also often stores it in fat cells, that means your gaining "fat", the fat cells are enlarging. Research how cortisol and insulin interact if you disagree with the timing theory. There have been quite a few studies on this.

Insulin also inhibits production of glucagon, which is responsible for fat metabolism. None of this is that esoteric that you need a degree to understand it, everything we've said can be learned in about 5 minutes on wikipedia, it's not that complicated.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 03:09:26 PM
Glucagon causes glycogen metabolism, not fat metabolism. Also, you technically are gaining fat at the time you consume carbs, but just like bones are constantly being built and reabsorbed, you are storing and burning fat at the same time. Your body isn't static and cortisol production is highly overrated. Sex increases cortisol and lowers testosterone, but we all know sex doesn't make you fat. My point is that the absolute guideline for fat gain or loss is calories in vs out. Obsessing over hormones and food timing is pointless. You don't need to eat immediately after a workout, carbs aren't the worst things you can eat, and general timing of food consumption relates more to comfort than weight change.

Then again, I have digressed enough. I'll stick to the original topic and say simply to take an anti-androgen, and even then only a few months before leaving the military, or better yet afterwards with female hormones. Apparently, being trans leads to an "other than honorable" discharge and you don't want to risk your benefits for the sake of a few months.

... Ok, you're just playing semantic games, glucagon induces the release of stored energy from fat cells (among other places), this is known as lipolysis, regardless of if you want to try to say it's glycogen metabolism (it's actually making ketone bodies, but let's not open that can of worms), two ways to say the same thing, you're burning energy that had been stored in fat cells. I understand that posting links isn't allowed but go to the lipolysis wiki article, second paragraph, first line, glucagon is one of the hormones which induces lipolysis, period. Is that all it does? No, but it does do that.

Many studies have validated the cortisol connection and it's Nutrition 101 for anyone who's serious about body building. There's a huge difference between GETTING to 5% BF for a short time, and STAYING there. The way I eat keeps me there.

Also, you absolutely do need to eat after a workout, if you want to maximize gains, saying otherwise is irresponsible and just wrong. You doing so just shows that you may have some formal education but you may need to do some reading about optimal nutrition for muscle anabolism and fat catabolism. These details are what separates people in "OK" shape, from people in amazing shape, I prefer to be in amazing shape, regardless of my gender. Carbs have their place, like every other nutrient, no one ever disputed that.

And thank you for your concern but I already have a plan in place to handle the military side of it.

Can anyone offer any insight into when they first started seeing signs of fat distribution shifting to female pattern areas? That's something that I very much wish to know, from your personal experiences, thank you so much.

To be honest, it doesn't sound like your life is actually at a point that you're ready for Hrt. Why don't you just wait till you're finished in the military? I know what it's like to want to start ASAP but yeah...

Quote from: Crystal_!17 on August 26, 2012, 06:47:21 AM
I could supplement with FSH drugs and maintain fertility while still enjoying all of the benefits of the rest of HRT.

Having "science experiment" children sounds risky and potentially expensive (in the long run).  Also what impact will transition have on your relationship?  You may want to find out before you start having kids or more kids.  The reality of transition will have far more impact on your relationship than the discussion of transition.  Once reality kicks in her hopes may fade.  She may be maintaining that this is a phase, etc. 

I would say, KISS which I am pretty certain stands for Keep it Simple Sexy.  Anti-Androgens seem like the sensible route.  Save the medications which require more medications which require even more medications (due to all the side-effects) for the terminally ill.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 26, 2012, 05:24:44 PM
Having "science experiment" children sounds risky and potentially expensive (in the long run).  Also what impact will transition have on your relationship?  You may want to find out before you start having kids or more kids.  The reality of transition will have far more impact on your relationship than the discussion of transition.  Once reality kicks in her hopes may fade.  She may be maintaining that this is a phase, etc. 

I would say, KISS which I am pretty certain stands for Keep it Simple Sexy.  Anti-Androgens seem like the sensible route.  Save the medications which require more medications which require even more medications (due to all the side-effects) for the terminally ill.

Well said.

Thanks everyone for your concern, but I did not come here to ask you for your input on my military career or my intentions to transition, I felt I made that pretty clear. I am an adult and fully capable of making those decisions myself. I came here to ask input on the unconventional drugs used to achieve unique goals, which no one seems to know much about, so now my only question, and all I"d like to know, is when did you first start seeing fat distribution shifting to female patterns for a softer appearance?

Other than my boobs I never really noticed.

Quote from: DianaP on August 26, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
Okay, this will be my last post on this subject since I really don't want to argue this too much. Being at 5% body fat doesn't mean you're in fantastic shape. There are starving people with that body fat percentage. Also, I eat at least an hour after my workouts, yet I have developed great strength, being capable of squatting nearly 3 times my own weight. I can sprint 100 meters in under 15 seconds up steep hills. I benched more than double my bodyweight on my first try. I may not be huge, but that's because I don't train for hypertrophy for the sake of gymnastics, not because of my eating habits. Forget the formal education or wikipedia (which is a terrible source) and just look at facts, logic, and experience. Glucagon does not cause fat metabolism. It signals adipocytes to produce hormones that actually causes fat metabolism. Of course, they can be activated in other ways, but glucagon is one of them. Also, do you think cave people had supplements, regular eating habits, and weights? They didn't, but I'm sure any primal human would be stronger than modern humans simply by having to lift weirdly shaped objects, brachiating through forests, etc. The point is that you make this stuff far too complicated. I've gotten to 5% body fat eating plenty of carbs and maintaining strength. I just have a very active lifestyle and lost a lot of fat. However, a low body fat percentage comes with a few side effects like cold intolerance and occasional fatigue, so I increased my percentage by eating more meat. I kept my carb intake the same, but simply ate more calories in the form of meat, some lean, some not so much. Thus, you're way of eating may be fine, but the end result is the same. Less calories = less weight. You just got your deficit with lower carbs, is all.

You're still just picking minor issues, expounding on them a bit (e.g. the difference between "causing fat metabolism" and "signalling adipocytes to make hormones" which then cause fat metabolism. Does Glucagon serve as a precursor to fat metabolism, yes or no? The answer is yes. You act as if that invalidates anything that I've said, but never really refuting me, while still semanticizing to boot.

As for your theory on the "primal athlete", if you say so, that's why athletic records have been improving steadily for centuries and longer, it's called sport science, bottom line is that athletes today are bigger, stronger, faster and just plain better than at any other time in history, and it's because they understand the "complexities" as you say, of all of this minutiae. In any case I am also ready to drop this, because I didn't come here for nutritional advice and don't much care about your diet, I am fully qualified to handle that myself as well, along with the rest of my life.

Lastly your claim to have squatted nearly three times your body weight again reveals your inexperience (or you're just making it up). Once again I am impeded by my inability to post a link, but Google "weight lifting standards", (Or is Google also an unreliable source?) now click the first link, there you will find a chart showing that basically, in order for you to have done so, you would have to be both 1. Extremely small and 2. In the top 1% of all people in the world who strength train, and since you admit you do not train for hypertrophy, but gymnastics, that's pretty much impossible. If you "squatted three times your weight", you did it with improper form and thus the lift does not qualify. The same goes for your claim to have benched twice your body weight.