I am all up for lost causes and have an undying love for the underdogs...

and I know it can happen!

TessaM, why do you feel it is morally incorrect not to tell? Most other people don't seem to be morally obligated to disclose anything they don't want to, why should different rules apply to us? I don't like the thought that there's something so inherently wrong with me that I am obligated to inform potential partners of my medical history. It's not like I suffer from a deadly contagious disease or am a termite infested house up for sale.

TessaM, I'm not uniformly against telling. I am myself married to a guy that full well knows about my past as we met back when I was pre-op. Had we met later I might still have told, but not because I would have felt morally obligated to do so. My life would pretty much have to be turned upside down to keep an air tight lid on this thing and I'm not sure I'd be willing to make those sacrifices, so for practical purposes I might disclose if the relationship was getting serious. The thing I have a problem with is the notion that we are sort of violating our partners by not telling. It's almost as if I should feel unclean and tainted because of my past. I don't like that thought one bit. You draw the paralleled of not telling that one is missing a kidney, but that's not the same thing at all because no-one would think it be immoral or wrong not to tell.

Regarding stealth I wish I was a little bit more stealth than I am at the moment. I can't change that right now for several reasons but in time I intend to. Other than making the stupid mistake of telling a friend of mine earlier this summer I haven't told a single soul about my past in years now. Unfortunately that doesn't mean most people don't know. It's impossible to keep a lid on this thing because people just can't keep their mouths shut and the idea that I might not want everyone to know just don't seem to cross their minds.

Back when I transitioned I kind of scoffed at the idea of being stealth, but as time has gone by I've gotten pretty tired of being out. I'm coming up on a decade being full-time next year, and frankly I'd like some privacy now. I absolutely hate being introduced to people that I've never met before and already they know the whole story. I can tell by the look of fascination on their when I talk to them. They look at me as if I have a huge traffic cone orange hairdoo on my head and it seems they can barely hear what I'm saying. My cousin is getting married this month and I'm invited but I really don't want to go because I just know that the whole groom's side of the family will know about me and I'll have to go through this ordeal with each and every one of them. Being out and proud is great if that is your thing but not so great when one just wants to be left alone and treated like everyone else. I don't like being a curiosity.

Quote from: TessaM on August 27, 2012, 08:12:22 PM
Im completely on the opposite side of the spectrum on this one. I really think you should, dare I even say its moraly INcorrect to not do so? Things obviously should be serious otherwise why bother. Maybe its just me though, but me overcoming and going through everything in my life is most certainly worthy of sharing with the eventual love of my life. At least I think so...

I would think that you are expressing the popular opinion.  I used the feel the same way.

In fact..  I am about to date a guy who doesn't know about my past and I have been questioning myself a lot because it has stirred up old stuff.

The thing is most of us go through life believing that we are our ideas.  And the unfortunate truth is that most people succeed at going though life, being their ideas.  But life is a lot bigger than ideas, or at least it can be.

The first time I practiced Zazen meditation successfully I sat without thinking for several minutes and it suddenly dawned on me on an experiential level that without my ideas, I continued to exist.  And the truth was that my ideas about life and myself prevented me from experiencing life.

A woman is not an object.  A woman is not someone with a natal vagina.  A woman is not someone with certain chromosomes.  Being a woman is an experience.  But most of us will never allow ourselves to have that experience because we think we already know what being a woman is and we will never allow it to happen in our own lives.  That would make us typical, normal and average but it's no way to live once you have tasted freedom from self-repression.

Most people will defend their beliefs to the death, because they believe that they are their beliefs and without their beliefs they would cease to exist.  The reality closer to the truth is that their ideas and beliefs will prevent them from ever having a life, from ever experiencing and having what they claim they want and need.

To me a genuine transition is the closest thing to a true spiritual experience.  But we all need different things at different stages of our lives and certain things are much more relevant to us when they are a part of our lives.  Transition is no longer a part of my life so telling someone that I am trans doesn't speak to the truth of who I am but rather tends to speak against it.

Yes, I transitioned but I am over it and I have a history of having lived female.  I am content to live as a female now and it's what I transitioned for.  If I was transitioning I would be more likely to introduce myself as trans but now it's just a way for people to view me as something other than what I am.  Why gather trouble unto myself like that?  I have already suffered enough.  If I don't believe in myself no one else will.  I learned a long time ago that you can't speak out of both sides of your mouth and be taken seriously.

Perhaps things will change but I doubt it and until then I am living in shared reality, one where I am female.

I have yet to meet someone and express affection towards a male but I will most definitely tell them I'm trans. I have too much to lose because some guy decides to kill me because he "feels" like he is protecting his masculinity. I have too many people who love me and a daughter who thinks I'm a super hero that I'd give my life for.

This is one of those subjects that there isn't a right answer for. No way we could all agree on it. Good topic non the less.

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." ~ Freidrich Nietzsche

If you feel it's best to tell someone, for whatever reasons: cool. If you feel it isn't, for whatever reasons: equally cool. People are individuals, with different lives, different perceptions, different thought processes. Free to make up their own minds and live with the consequences of their choices.

Trying to make up everyone else's mind and considering what everyone should do is largely an excersise in futility, although it makes for forum debate. Really, just do your thing and find happiness in the way you choose to live. The why's and why not's are up to each of you individually to determine as they relate to your own life and your own circumstances. There is no right or wrong answer, only the decisions you make and the way they affect your life.

Everyone has to find his or her own right answer.  Still I would softly caution against allowing the right answer to dictate your life.  Life isn't so much about answers and nothing is either right nor wrong but thinking that something is right or wrong tends to make it so (at least in our minds anyway).

If you believe you have the right answer and you live your life within the confines of that right answer and never over-step the boundaries that you have created for yourself then you will never know what could have been but perhaps the sense of safety is it's own reward?

"Don't step outside the box, you will surely be eaten!"

Most of us use our fears as rationalizations in order to avoid overstepping our self-imposed boundaries.  Paper tigers and smoke dragons.  We hear about someone who was attacked by a dragon and we wallpaper the inside of our little "reality box" or miniature world with what seems like the moral to our ideology of compression (that of shoe-horning life into neat little boxes).  A bright mural painted in blood-tones, depicting someone foolish being torn apart by a tiger!  And the moral of the story is ...  (Insert self-restricting ideology here) and marry it to the local headline (it doesn't matter if the facts line up or not) the sheer horror of it all is enough to warrant belief.

Trans woman plays a woman in real life and get's it.  The murderer blames the victim, or is that us?

And the truth is that what I am saying will never apply to most people or maybe it will but in subtler, less scary and more manageable ways.  I have no idea O_o ...

There is a definite dichotomy here between pre-op (or non-op) and post-op. Post-op, I think the consensus is that one might at least consider not telling. Pre-op or non-op: the consensus is it is a good idea to tell. Unless I missed something, to wit:

Quote from: TessaM on August 27, 2012, 08:12:22 PM
Hmm everyone here seems to be content with not telling your partner. Im completely on the opposite side of the spectrum on this one. I really think you should, dare I even say its moraly INcorrect to not do so? Things obviously should be serious otherwise why bother...

I thought the women pushing for not telling were not onoy post-ops but LONG TIME post-ops like Noey and I. When your passport and birth certificate says you are a female and you have a vagina and a totally female face and demeanor, why tell, at  least until it gets serious. And men are a dime a dozen, why would anyone get serious about any man until at least after several dates. 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 27, 2012, 11:34:32 PM
There is a definite dichotomy here between pre-op (or non-op) and post-op. Post-op, I think the consensus is that one might at least consider not telling. Pre-op or non-op: the consensus is it is a good idea to tell.

Hold on a sec, I am going to rewrite my post fifty more times...

I mean yes, I totally agree.

Me too but I've gotten bored.

Sorry for the edits, Noey but I am in such a habit of editing everything I write, it is a hard habit to break.

I was referring to my edits  O_O  .

I didn't realize you suffered from a similar affliction.

I was referring to post #94 of this thread.

(my post)

Quote from: MariaMx on August 27, 2012, 08:43:48 PM
TessaM, why do you feel it is morally incorrect not to tell? Most other people don't seem to be morally obligated to disclose anything they don't want to, why should different rules apply to us? I don't like the thought that there's something so inherently wrong with me that I am obligated to inform potential partners of my medical history. It's not like I suffer from a deadly contagious disease or am a termite infested house up for sale.

because there is a huge sociological difference between telling your partner you once broke your foot vs you once had a penis.

I can prove this by the simple fact of you going into a women's bathroom and then tell the girls in there you used to be a man. Based on your opinion, every single girl in that bathroom will be ok with you because it would be no different than someone walking into the bathroom and saying they used to have a cleft palette.

In a perfect world, people would not care about gender. But this isn't a perfect world. If you hide this from your partner then I would agree that you will be essentially lying to him. Keeping secrets from him.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:32:45 AM
because there is a huge sociological difference between telling your partner you once broke your foot vs you once had a penis.

I can prove this by the simple fact of you going into a women's bathroom and then tell the girls in there you used to be a man.

Many women who transition (see how I referred to people such as myself without using the term man?) will tell you all day long that they have always been female but then some of those same women will say that they used to be a man or they used to have a penis (for emphasis that they used to be a man) or that they are really a surgically modified man.  It's no wonder some women who transitioned who view themselves as altered men prefer to tell a partner that they aren't biologically female. 

It's a huge difference or a huge secret when you treat it like a huge difference and a huge secret.  That is why "stealth" is such an awful word, because it implies that women who transition are really just men in hiding and I know a lot of trans women feel that way and I'm not arguing.  Everyone has the freedom to self-identify.

However, I think it would be absolutely awful to live with a secret like that. 

I am one of those women who transitioned who have always been female.  And I know the power of words.  I used to share the same sentiment that you expressed but after I got over transition (and got over myself) I began to realize that I really had always been female.  And you are right, when ignorant people find out that we had to go through what we went through they think of us as men, even if they are nice and "accepting" about it.

I decided to put my money where my mouth is.  If I really have always been female then that is my truth and it is a truth that grows just like a little girl growing up into womanhood.  You have the power to create and to destroy with the things you say, especially on a forum like this.

Transition is what you make of it.  If you are a woman and you look like a woman and you aren't married with kids and working at a place where everyone knows your old name then feel free to be a woman.  Feel free to make no excuses.  Do you think that a woman who transitioned who never admits to anything except what she knows in her heart about herself is going to be torn apart by someone who loves her?  Or will it be the woman who breaks down and admits to being a man that will cause her husband to really freak?  There is nothing more damning than testifying against yourself as being a man in a woman disguise.

The power to create, the power to destroy.  Focus on what you don't want and it will begin to fill every room in your house.  Focus on what you have, on who you are, focus on personal honesty and you might just have something wonderful.

Another thought...

Woman transitions successfully and completely starts over.  She gives up her old career and begins from scratch in a completely new city in a completely new state (our country).  She left all her old friends behind, maybe they reminded her of a past that didn't belong to her, maybe she was never able to form any attachments due to GID.  So why not start out on a clean slate?  She has taken on a huge expense, SRS, maybe BAS or FFS...  Not to mention giving up her career and starting over with no job references.  It isn't easy but she makes a new life for herself and her reward is the freedom to be true to herself and to grow as a woman.

So she eventually meets a guy and goes out on a few dates.  When should she tell?  When should she prepare to break that news?  Her new life, everything that she sacrificed, saved for and worked for could be put in jeopardy if this guy freaks out when she tells him that she transitioned and he may choose to make an example out of her, make sure that no one is ever fooled by her ever again.  So how soon should she risk her life and everything she has worked for so some guy can feel good about where he puts his penis?

What is creating Society's perception of trans women, women being women or women admitting they are men?  What are we telling Society?  What are we telling people?  Having our cake and eating it too?  Talking out of both sides of our mouths?  Each and every one of us who transitions has a special opportunity to either show Society that we are our inner or true sex or to show Society that we are pretending to be women with everyone except for the people who really matter in our lives.  Why would Society accept us?

Maybe if we accept ourselves (for real) Society will begin to change how it views transsexuals.  Nobody believes in someone who doesn't even believe in herself.  We are setting the example that Society follows.

As always just something to consider, there is no right or wrong way but sometimes you can have what you want if you don't focus on everything you don't want. So I would say decide what you want and focus on that.

I think if we tell them anything, we should tell them we are non-cisgender.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:32:45 AM
In a perfect world, people would not care about gender. But this isn't a perfect world. If you hide this from your partner then I would agree that you will be essentially lying to him. Keeping secrets from him.

I'm not willing to accept that there is a "moral" imperative for disclosure. That society has a problem with me is society's problem. Trying to say it's my problem is just victim blaming.

I am a female born with a physical defect, re: one penis. I can't possibly imagine telling someone I "used to be a man" or "I was born a boy" or any of the various permutations. THAT would be a lie. Just because society has an inaccurate perception of my self, my body and my identity, doesn't mean I have to agree, and certainly doesn't mean I have to obey.

There are plenty of valid reasons to disclose. Morality isn't one of them.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Bite me world. Bite me.

What I have been attempting to demonstrate in this thread is that we can create our own "reality" and that "reality" is what people think.  In other words "intellectualism" is something that people do, they decide what reality is because ego = what I think about myself and reality = what I believe about life, the world and everything.  Everyone does it.  But it is like other things, if you know that people do it, if you understand it then you can make use of it to your own advantage.

But if you just accept your ideas as who you are and if you just accept that what you believe = life, the world and everything then it won't be easy for those things to overcome your preconceived notions about them.  It is like trees and bushes.  Some people just take for granted that trees grow and bushes grow, where and how they will.  But other people realize that you can plant a bush or a tree where you desire, and not only can you choose where to plant them but you can also trim them and train them.

People used to forage all over the place for fruit and vegetables and then other people came along who realized you could plant a garden and have the things you want at your finger tips.

The type of 'Intellectualism' I'm not advocating is the type that says, "Planting a garden, that's ridiculous, you can't just make things grow where you want them, besides if Mother Nature had wanted fruits and vegetables to grow in gardens she would have put them there in the first place!"  "And having your garden and your neat little rows of carrots, radishes and turnips is a LIE!"  "Gardens aren't natural and everyone knows that carrots don't grow in gardens, they grow out in the wilderness!"  "Besides, when you have your neighbors over for dinner and they ask to see pictures of the food you prepared in it's natural habitat, before you picked it, how will you will respond because everyone is going to realize that all you really are is a liar and a deceiver."

In the world where I live people never ask to see my childhood pictures unless they already heard a rumor (and believed it) that you planted your own garden and then they only ask for the pictures to let you know that they know, that you aren't getting away with it.

In the world where I live everyone thinks they already know pretty much everything.  People know that carrots grow out in the wilderness, next to the forest and a carrot found anywhere else is unnatural and best never be eaten.  The world where I live can be a wonderful place where you can have your carrots and peas and eat them too.  But in the world where I live reeducating everyone you meet to incorporate your vegetables into their salads is counter-productive and it's best to overcome your own misplaced ideas about what is important and how things work and just get on with life.

I would say that a real intellectual discovers what is counter-productive and allows that experience to flower by learning how to appreciate that which is counter-intuitive. 


You live in a house.  There is a jar of cookies on the floor just inside the front door.  The cookies were there when you rented the place.  At night when you come home from a job at the local mini mall you remind yourself where the jar of cookies is because you used to trip over them in the past but you are making a job of incorporating their existence into your reality in order to avoid another accident.  When you invite guests into your house you make it a point to tell them about the jar of cookes, "Careful when you come in, don't trip over the jar of cookies."

Everyone wants to talk about the jar of cookies.  Everyone has their own theories about what to tell their guests about the jar of cookies.  "Should I tell them before I invite them over or should I wait till they are about to enter my house?"  "Everyone is discussing when to tell and how to tell."  An 'Intellectual' (the kind of person I could respect and admire) would have dealt with the cookies a long time ago.  She would have been like, "WTF are these stupid cookies doing in the middle of the floor for people to trip over?"  And she would have either eaten them or tossed them out and they wouldn't even be an issue.  But no... everyone wants to talk about the cookies in the middle of the floor.  "Do we put a traffic cone next to them or do we set a potted plant on top of them?"  "When do we need to tell people about the jar of cookies, do we only tell the people who are closest to us or the people who will never have any occasion to visit us in our home?"  Cookies, cookies, cookies, what a fascinating topic.  Let's talk about cookies.

Or maybe...  How about this?  We refer to the jar of cookies by another name?  Lets call it a glass box of dense mini cakes?