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Troubling religious quote/advice needed

Started by Rena-san, August 28, 2012, 08:52:18 AM

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Rena-san

I found this via a Catholic site. I myself am Catholic, and I know that this is the answer I would expect to read, but I am troubled by it and somewhat discouraged to continue on my path I started on. I would appreciate anyone elses take on it. All I want to know is if I am doing the right thing, I don't want to hurt God:

A transgendered person is still what God made him/her, despite hormones and plastic surgery. Medical manipulation can't change a person's sex, which is determined by his/her chromosomes. A female transgendered to male would not be eligible for the priesthood on the grounds that she is really female. Nor would a female transgendered to male be eligible, if for no other reason than her having undergone the procedure would show mental instability. The same reason would apply to a male>female seeking acceptance in female religious order.
As to the child of a couple, one or both of whom are transgendered, seeking enrollment in a Catholic school, there is no general rule on how it should be handled. Naturally, it's not a desirable situation, since the school would be obliged to uphold Catholic teaching, which condemns the sort of mutilation and self-deception involved in so-called sex reassignment. And that would place the child in an uncomfortable position.
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spacial

You can't be a priest.

I can't see anything more in the article.

As for the claims, whatever. If any transgender person, either aiming for SRS or post op, believes that the physical changes are anything more than cosmetic, then they probably do need some support, hopefully  from us, in the first instance. In much the same way as modern surgical techniques can make many physical birth problems appear more acceptable, nothing can take away the fact, nor the memory.

I doubt any transgender person, regardless of what they may have done about it or how much they may have progressed, will claim they are anything other than how they were born. I, for example, if I was to be rid of the ugly bit, I would be the same person I always have been, just not so affected by the poisons the ugly bits produce.

Apologies to any RCs or similar.
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NotThereYet

Well, what can I say? Welcome to the 7th, oops, 21st century, zealous Catholics...

I wonder how ->-bleeped-<- compares to pedophilia, in fact, how it compares to a pope, who was even beatified, now that's a laugh, who deliberately covered up pedophilia and pedophiles...

This is not an attack to the catholic Church, which, all in all, was the Church started by the Christ, but actually to any form of organized religion that openly presents itself in a very ambiguous, treacherous way.

The Lord Jesus created you and your heart: follow your heart, and try to stick as close as possible to the Word that you can find int the Four Gospels, and you will be fine.

Kind Regards,
Andrea
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Elsa

well I can't find the link... so I don't know about the site or what it says.

As another Catholic, the day I found out how the Church considers people who are LGBT was the day I lost my desire to go church.
And since then, I was 8/10 years old at the time, I always dreaded having to go to mass and spend time around people who would hate me for being myself and who I really am.

Although I am still religious (almost everyone in my country is deeply religious) - I can only hope that as per Catholic beliefs a God who is very kind and loving would forgive me for wanting desperately to just be myself. After all this is the way he created me - I can just hope and pray. that's the only thing I can believe as I transition.

I don't believe that me being attracted to both men and women and finding myself in the wrong body and unable to express myself to be so bad that I can be grouped with people who have committed murder, rape, etc. which almost all religions are willing to forgive after some sort of penance. But me being trans and bisexual can't be forgiven.


Sometimes when life is a fight - we just have to fight back and say screw you - I want to live.

Sometimes we just need to believe.
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MariaMx

#4
Well, here's my take on it: If lowbrow football hooligans give you trouble, then stay away from lowbrow football hooligans. There are literally thousands of religions out there claiming all sorts of things about life and the universe, but they can't all be right. Maybe you should consider the possibility that Catholicism, or at the very least the site you visited, is simply wrong about this stuff?

I don't know what exactly the Catholic stance on the matter is, if there even is an official one, but it seems to me that you are experiencing some cognitive dissonant between your own experience and what you've read. Religious people with with strong negative opinions about trans people do not know better than us just because they have a bible in hand. I'm sorry but their view just don't trump reality on a say-so. My general experience is that people that aren't trans have no idea what they are talking about when they voice their opinion on the matter.

I'm not saying you should become an atheist or anything, but just consider the possibility that what you've read is plain and simply wrong.
"Of course!"
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NotThereYet

@Vibe
Sorry if I ask, but what country are you from? I am surprised by the deeply religious statement. :-)

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Elsa

@NotThereYet its ok... I am from India... almost everyone here is religious although there are a few atheists here as well

anyways if you start talking to someone about religion here - you would either end up in long conversation/argument that would either end with something philosophical or end with someones religious sentiments getting hurt.

as far as religion is concerned I try to keep an open mind. :)
Sometimes when life is a fight - we just have to fight back and say screw you - I want to live.

Sometimes we just need to believe.
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Vicky

God is above and beyond our ability to hurt or damage in any way.  Why do we have counselors and surgeons who have been called into their professions?  They have not been called by evil forces because of the peace they can bring with their skills and humaness.  Their purpose is not to hurt a being who by definition is so far above hurt, it is to help humans get along and be productive by being at harmony with their world.
I refuse to have a war of wits with a half armed opponent!!

Wiser now about Post Op reality!!
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Mosaic dude

Whoever wrote that quote had a really poor grasp of human biology.  Sexual characteristics in humans are almost completely determined by hormones, not DNA, and sex chromosome anomalies are pretty common.  If you believe in the Christian god, then you have to believe he knows a lot more about biology than some dude writing stuff on a website (since, y'know, he created biology).  You also have to believe he made you the way you are, which means he must have meant for you to be who you are.  If he really had a problem with you being transgendered, he wouldn't have made you that way.
Living in interesting times since 1985.
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Isabelle

To put it politely, the Cathoic Church is guilty of crimes against humanity and their leadership needs to be brought to trial and their assets seized and sold for victim compensation. I was almost sick in my own mouth when I got to the part about them being concerned about putting children in uncomfortable situations. Their stance on any trans issue is entirely invalid, as is their stance on any matter as they are an inherintly corrupt organization and an undeniably force of vile agency in the world.
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ashley_thomas

Former evangelical here, key word former.  I still am spiritual and my personal beliefs haven't strayed much but I have a ton more clarity on this stuff for my life:

1. Religious organizations are dangerous to non-conforming individuals, actually highly dangerous and for trans people that's especially true. Be VERY careful.

2. Many "Christians" are more comfortable discussing the "wrong doing" of others rather than focusing on the commands that apply to them.

3. With respect to our fellow human beings, scripture is relatively clear, love your neighbor, that is be kind, do kind things, help, be charitable, even if inconvenient.  For Christ's sake, literally, he hung out with and helped the outcasts, hint in today's parlance that's us among others.

4. That takes us back to point 2, which is why you should be VERY careful.  There are deeply flawed people in religious organizations that are drawn to it like moths to a light and though we are all far from perfect, the concentration of blind perfectionists who   focus on others to feel better is beyond astounding.

Be spiritual but watch your back, trans or not, when in a religious organization.
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Ms. OBrien CVT

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-christian, just anti-zealot.

If you truly examine the history of the Catholicism and the Catholic church, you will find that it is nothing more than a revamped Roman Empire.  The first Pope was a Caesar, Pope Constantine.  Every pope since is nothing more than an emperor of the Roman Empire.

True Christians show only love for their fellow humans.  The old testament has noting to do with Christianity, nor do anything other than the gospels.

Oh and just so you will know, I am Wiccan.

Blessed be.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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justmeinoz

The information on genetics is wrong.  The person writing has obviously never heard of Intersex conditions and the 16, at last count, ways X and Y can combine.  Unless someone actually has a chromosome test (expensive) they really can't know for sure. 
As for the Church,  there is no unanimity among the Christian Churches on trans issues.  The easiest way out might be to do some internet research and find one that is welcoming.  If anyone queries why you have left the RCC you could simply reply that it is over theological issues, and leave it at that.
Personally I am in an Atheist Existential phase at the moment, after being a member of the Anglican Church, but that could change. I will not criticise anyone else for their beliefs, just ask pertinent questions at times, and offer a few observations that may help someone.

Karen.

"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Joann

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on August 29, 2012, 10:21:03 PM
Let me start by saying that I am not anti-christian, just anti-zealot.

If you truly examine the history of the Catholicism and the Catholic church, you will find that it is nothing more than a revamped Roman Empire.  The first Pope was a Caesar, Pope Constantine.  Every pope since is nothing more than an emperor of the Roman Empire.

True Christians show only love for their fellow humans.  The old testament has noting to do with Christianity, nor do anything other than the gospels.

Oh and just so you will know, I am Wiccan.

Blessed be.

Indeed... the R.C.C. became the precise thing that christ despised.
Mostly the way i see it is the Churches temples, ashrams are where the good things come from.
Community involvement, self enrichment, charity, fellowship,love.
Its religion where the bad comes from. Thou will/ Thou wont, punishment for non conformity (witch hunts), wars, fear, mind control, beating woman/ children, torture ect and something we are all familiar with,.. Gender inequality.

I'm Wiccan too.
As we like to say.
"If it harms none,. Do what thou will"
The wiccan rede
♪♫ You dont look different but you have changed...
I'm looking through you,. Your not the same ♪♫ :)
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Jamie D

A transgendered person is still what God made him/her, despite hormones and plastic surgery. Medical manipulation can't change a person's sex, which is determined by his/her chromosomes. A female transgendered to male would not be eligible for the priesthood on the grounds that she is really female. Nor would a female transgendered to male be eligible, if for no other reason than her having undergone the procedure would show mental instability. The same reason would apply to a male>female seeking acceptance in female religious order.

I wonder what the Catholic Church's position is on individuals who have CAIS?  I am willing to bet the family farm they have 46-XY individuals serving as nuns.
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Cyndigurl45

My gay nephew sent this out, it's a good read.

Why Being Gay Isn't Against The Bible

Far too often we hear the Christian right use the bible as justification for their bigotry. Who knows where they get this stuff though, because the bible actually speaks out against bigotry in any way. Not only that, but there is no clear admonition of homosexuality anywhere in either the Old or the New Testaments.

The biblical scriptures most often used to argue against homosexuality have been horribly and repeatedly misinterpreted, according to more than a few theologians and biblical scholars. How about we dissect the scriptural excuses for homophobia one by one? The part of the creation story most used to justify homophobia seems to be the part about it being "natural" for man and woman to come together and make babies. That apparently passes for justification — God says make babies, and gay couples can't do it, therefore, they are unnatural right? Well. What about couples that are infertile? Are they unnatural? What about people who simply choose not to have kids? Are they unnatural? One really has no choice given the other possibilities but to take that line to mean "hey, sex is okay! It is natural to enjoy it, and to want it!"With Sodom and Gomorrah God wasn't mad about them being gay, God was mad because of their arrogance, and because they didn't share their wealth with the poor, but chose to hoard it all away (Republicans, anyone?) Ezekial 16:48-49 states that incredibly clearly.

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. (48) Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.(49)

Nowhere in the bible does it actually use the term Sodomite to refer to anyone other than people from Sodom. You wouldn't call everyone who says "Eh?" a Canadian, would you?

And the passages in Leviticus that shun homosexuality? Calling it an abomination? The actual hebrew word used is TO'EBAH. It doesn't mean the same thing as abomination does in English — it isn't a law, it's used to describe something that non-Jews did that Jews thought was displeasing to God. It means ritually improper, not abomination. It isn't a quote from God, it isn't his law or his rules, it is what a bunch of people way back decided might probably not be cool in God's eyes. TO'EBAH doesn't refer to things like rape, or murder being evil, or the ten commandments — not cold hard law, but closer to "you should probably wash your dishes before they get moldy."

Then Jesus showed up and said "all those rules? pfft. They don't apply to Christians," Though I'm sure he said it in a much nicer and more Jesus-y way. When Jesus says all those rules, he doesn't mean "just the ones about selling your daughter into slavery and wearing mixed fibers" he means, ALL of those rules. As in, don't pick and choose.
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spacial

If I may expand this discussion, the animosity between successive religious schools and gay people has always been rather fraught.

If we look at the origins of what are known as the monotheist religions, sometimes Judeo-Christian, it is ancient Egypt. The God King, worshiped on Earth, whose will is delivered by priests.

This led to a number of variants, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Islam, being the main surviving. Each is based upon the will of a god, as revealed to mortals who must obey, without question.

In reality, each of these is a means of organizing and manipulating people to sacrifice their labour, their wealth and their lives. Even those claiming the authority to deliver the Christian message, continue with the blatantly contradictory claim that we can kill for god.

Form this perspective, religion is about social organisation. Those that fail to conform to what is preceived as a norm are cast out.

The physically and mentally disabled have little to offer either militarily or economically and so are cursed by the devil.

The free thinkers challenge the dictates of those claiming to be appointed and so are are possessed by the devil.

The sexually non-conforming are seen as incapable of reproduction. Perhaps more importantly, in the close environment of a military structure, men interested in men, sensitive men, will be detrimental to discipline.  Women who prefer women are less likely to submit to the agressions of real men. The sexually non-conforming are automatically accused of depravity, being a danger, to children, to animals, exchanging their seed with the devil.

The RC, like any other of these traditions, needs little justification for its dictates. The association between masturbation and the Genesis figure, Onan seems to be relatively contemporary. When I was doing my research into ancient references to homosexuality, in the early 70s, I found some particularly old reference books from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Where masturbation was mentioned, in some cases, there was a reference to God, but none to Onan, even when other rationalizations were referenced to the Bible. The phrase, Fight the Good Fight, for example was taken as being encouragement to fight the Germans in what was to become, WW1. But the anger of god toward homosexuals and self abusers was a given.

It's very sad for those who have developed a dependance upon groups like the RCs, the Mormons, Islam, Judaism, to be lied to in this way. It is really a quite disgraceful betrayal by each. The reasons for the current emphasis upon imposing disgusting sexual morals is the current obscession with what is claimed to be a degeneration is society. The reality is, societies, all societies, are more peaceful, more secure, healthier, happier and more contented, than they have ever been at any time in history. The problem for these groups is that too many of their followers are no-longer listening to them. And these groups can't seem to figure out that the reason is, we don't like being lied to.

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justmeinoz

When it comes to trans and gay issues, it is worthwhile looking at what quotes from Jesus there are in the Bible, they are "..........................." 

Precisely nothing.  And while I was a Christian, that was good enough for me.

If you want a Mission Statement for the firm, I would rely on the CEO rather than a Union Shop Steward  on the factory floor.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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MaidofOrleans

I'm sorry sweetheart but considering the vast amounts of suffering and death inflicted by Catholics and their church over the course of history, your being transgender is probably the last thing you should worry about offending God with. The Catholic church has long lost all priveledge to claim what is moral and what is not. The only person whose word truely matters is that of Jesus and according to him God loves you, transgender or not.
"For transpeople, using the right pronoun is NOT simply a 'political correctness' issue. It's core to the entire struggle transpeople go through. Using the wrong pronoun means 'I don't recognize you as who you are.' It means 'I think you're confused, delusional, or mentally I'll.'. It means 'you're not important enough for me to acknowledge your struggle.'"
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Eva Marie

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on September 03, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
The only person whose word truely matters is that of Jesus and according to him God loves you, transgender or not.

This.

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