I realize this could blow back in my face but it bears serious consideration. In the States, there's a big debate about abortion and attempts to get it banned even in the case of rape or incest. Now, some of you have already had kids but I and probably others are absolutely terrified of carrying a...parasite in me. In fact, it kind of moves hysterectomy up on top of the list. What do you gentlemen think?

I'm always against abortion. Even thought I am terrified of children and even more of getting pregnant, I would rather commit suicide so both me and my child died than having killed somebody. And even though the person may not have a personality yet It still have a potential personality. Why would you want to kill a person that can't even think yet? Would you really kill a person because you have been raped? Would you want to kill 'Miles' that have a boyfriend named Andrew. He have several friends and dreams of being a teacher. Would you deny him his life because his father was stupid? I wouldn't. If you would do that. Should we also allow killing of children under a year old? Because they hardly have a personality too? Most people wouldn't. Why?  I don't know. I don't understand it at all.

Well, I have believed that it's a woman's choice to do what she wants with her body, but I don't want to get into a debate, so I'll leave any other opinions on abortion out. If you really don't want to risk having kids, you can either never have sex with a male or get a hysterectomy. It's your decision what you want to do with your reproductive system, so I wouldn't listen to anyone other than yourself on this issue. Just remember that there are risks and costs to any surgery and, once again, take your opinion above anyone else's.

Quote from: Frank on August 30, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
Now, some of you have already had kids but I and probably others are absolutely terrified of carrying a...parasite in me. In fact, it kind of moves hysterectomy up on top of the list. What do you gentlemen think?

Gee Frank,
         Isn't this just a bit insensitive to your fellow FtM's who became mothers before their decision to change gender? I'm sure they must love their children more than to consider them parasites! As for your concerns about getting pregnant, don't give it another thought, it ain't going to happen!

Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
As for your concerns about getting pregnant, don't give it another thought, it ain't going to happen!

Ok, just to be clear, testosterone doesn't make it impossible for you to get pregnant. Less likely? Yes. Impossible? No. Just be careful, regardless of being on HRT.

As a dude who was raped and forced into vaginal sex with no form of birth control or protection, I believe that everyone should have a right to choose what they do with their bodies. We all have to do wt we need to do to survive, really.

I like to put it this way:
I am for the rights of women. That definitely includes being able to live long enough to be born and be able to grow up to be women.
I am for the right to choose what to do with one's own body. That includes the right to be able to grow to be old enough to choose for themselves without being killed. That includes choosing whether or not to risk getting pregnant. What I can't understand is how people (not all, but many) conveniently forget that they made that choice. Also, I believe they have the right to choose what to do with their own body. Their child's body (however many cells it has) belongs to their child.
I am against rape and rapists. Personally, I would rather the rapist get killed instead of a completely blameless person, but I also understand that I was lucky not to end up in that situation and cannot make an informed decision in that regard.

Um...think of what?

If you want an abortion, get one. I do think the ban on late term abortions in most states is acceptable (although it's a complicated situation).

I've heard since abortions are harder to get in some areas (many more rules and in some cases very hard to get) there has been an increase of non-medical, back alley type abortions. There is a reason the coat hanger was a symbol of abortions that were illegal and back alley.

I do think it's a difficult subject, and I wouldn't put myself down as "pro-abortion". I just feel that people need to have choices in difficult (and impossible situations).

--Jay Jay

Abortion was not right for me, personally, but I think women need to have the right to control their own bodies.

I'm pro-choice but could and would never get an abortion if god-forbid something happened to me. But I also have no intention of giving birth myself, I'll leave that one for my future wife. My mom always tells me about this girl she went to high school with. She kept getting pregnant and having abortions, at least SIX of them if you can believe it. Then she grew up, got married, decided to have kids.. and gave birth to a child with down syndrome. That story sticks with me.

If I was raped and I got pregnant, I would have an abortion in a heartbeat. No thought process, no questions asked. I'd be at the clinic tomorrow.

Quote from: Shantel on August 30, 2012, 05:48:13 PM
Gee Frank,
         Isn't this just a bit insensitive to your fellow FtM's who became mothers before their decision to change gender? I'm sure they must love their children more than to consider them parasites! As for your concerns about getting pregnant, don't give it another thought, it ain't going to happen!

He isn't insulting those of us who have kids. He is saying that he views pregnancy as being something that he couldn't do because he views himself as male. Men don't get pregnant so emotionally he would equate it to being like a parasite. For the record, I know plenty of women who have had kids and referred to their pregnancies that way. They love their kids and hated being pregnant. So, no, he isn't being rude or unreasonable I would say. Pregnancy is something that a lot FTMs have to worry about so I think its reasonable for us to talk about it. For Frank, depending on his stage of transition, partners and circumstances may have to worry about it, so its a valid topic.

Quote from: KyleXX on August 30, 2012, 08:48:26 PM
I'm pro-choice but could and would never get an abortion if god-forbid something happened to me. But I also have no intention of giving birth myself, I'll leave that one for my future wife. My mom always tells me about this girl she went to high school with. She kept getting pregnant and having abortions, at least SIX of them if you can believe it. Then she grew up, got married, decided to have kids.. and gave birth to a child with down syndrome. That story sticks with me.

I doubt a doctor would do six abortions on a teenager. Not even the most liberal of people I have met would consider that reasonable and I know that most doctors who do abortions wouldn't consider that reasonable. Also, there is no connection between abortions and Down Syndrome. But even if there was an unlikely event that it was maybe connected it would be well documented. Also, people with Down Syndrome are still people, and some of the sweetest people I have ever met have had it. People who are born different are not inferior humans at all.

For the record, I'm pro-choice. I've had an abortion and I would do it over again. I know people who have had them and I know people who have chosen against having one. I think the right to choose is an important one and I frankly think every woman as the right to seek it out. If we make abortions illegal and then we are just going to have a rise in botched abortion deaths going up. If someone doesn't want to have the kid, they will find a way not to. Simple as that. It happened in a village in Alaska - they closed the planned parenthood, local doctor wouldn't do the abortion, so a rape victim died trying to give herself an abortion. In this day and age that is unreasonable. 

Common arguments against it would be that they fetus has a soul or can feel. Scientifically it isn't true. It doesn't even start to resemble a developed human until it the last trimester. People argue that its murder, but I don't agree with that either - if it cannot live outside the human body then it cannot be given personhood or be considered a person. The last argument I have heard is people saying "Oh, but then teenagers will be getting abortions all the time!". So, in this case, teach them about safe sex. Take out abstinence only education because telling a bunch of teenagers with crazy emotions not to have sex is silly. Teach them the realities of sex and maybe teen pregnancy would go down. Saying someone would use abortion as a valid form of birth control could only come from the lips of someone who has never had one. They are painful. Incredibly so. So no, I don't see someone putting themselves through terrible pain to prevent having a kid. It sucks to bleed for three weeks and cramp so bad that you can't walk. Adults can barely handle the pain, I doubt a 15 year old would seek it out.

This isn't to say that there should be no regulations, but we certainly shouldn't make it illegal. From my perspective its like me saying that I don't agree with porn so it shouldn't exist. And we all know how well that would work out. *And before anyone throws up the "but porn doesn't harm human life" argument against me, I will say that actually, it certainly can depending on if the people in it were forced or not, and I don't consider a fetus a person. I consider it a potential human. Oh, and before I forget, people have been having abortions for the last 5,000 years on record. They did it in Ancient Egypt. It's also pretty ethnocentric considering in some cultures abortion isn't even an issue, so imposing a blanket western view on it doesn't work.

I'm pro-choice. All it means in the end is that I respect someone's right to choose. My father is anti-abortion and pro-choice because he realizes that it is not something he ever has to worry about and he has no right to tell someone they can't do it. Just as a note. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you are pro-abortion. I think everyone would rather not wish a painful medical procedure on anyone.

I'll use my friend Sara's statement to sum up my opinion. "Its a bunch of right old white men trying to tell me what do to with my body. When they can get knocked up, they can talk about the issue seriously." So, I don't see the moral or ethical issues with abortions. Frankly, its just a way to further control the womb-having population, as far as I'm concerned.

I would much rather people had abortions than brought up a child they didn't want, love or have the means to care for.  Does that make me a bad person and a potential baby-murder?  I don't think so, I can't see what's morally wrong with wanting to prevent someone from growing up having a truly awful childhood and being miserable for however many years of their life.  I'm not sure where I stand on abortions for people who discover they are carrying a disabled person - either mentally or physically - I think it depends on the individual case, their condition and the situation the parents are in, particularly in countries where healthcare isn't free and some poorer families might not be able to afford to give the child the medical attention they need for a good quality of life (there could be some provision for this, I don't know as we have the NHS here.)

As for rapists, I know I couldn't have a child that was the result of rape.  It would mentally destroy me I think.  It was hard enough for me to move on from getting sexually assaulted by my 'best friend', and had to get rid of the mobile as it was the same as his, the xBox games he'd lent me, change the vocabulary I'd picked up from him and even then things like sleeping on the left hand side of someone freaked me out because that's how he was.  To have a constant reminder every time I looked at the child would be impossible to get over and even the fear of it would be enough to make me want an abortion, especially knowing that I would always be able to see physical traits he'd given them.  If I ever have children I'd want to love them with my whole heart and bring them up as well as I could, otherwise I don't think it's fair on them, and I know I'd not be able to if part of me was always scared that I'd not be able to cope with the memories they remind me of.

Abortions for people who are just plain careless/sleep around/can't be bothered with protection are another matter entirely, but I'd still stick with my first point about the kid needing to grow up being loved and cared for properly.  And of course, there are some situations were it is necessary for medical reasons, for example someone I know would probably die if she had another child, but if something was to happen where she fell pregnant through say, rape, or a condom failing, or the Pill not working, is it morally right to sit and do nothing for 9 months knowing that she would probably die in labour (and the baby might as well) when you could of saved her life for certain for the price of a few bundles of emotionless cells?

Of course these are just my views and I fully agree that abortions aren't just another method of birth control, but I do think they're something that should be available, and not just for rape victims or FTMs.  Personally if I got pregnant - unless it was some seriously exceptional circumstances - I'd want to have an abortion, but I don't know whether I would actually be able to admit and accept that I was pregnant, I have a habit of refusing to believe things that prove my body is genetically female - when I started puberty as a kid I convinced myself I had cancer until I was terrified because I wouldn't accept that they were breasts.

Quote from: Alex000000 on August 30, 2012, 09:24:27 PM
I would much rather people had abortions than brought up a child they didn't want, love or have the means to care for.  Does that make me a bad person and a potential baby-murder?  I don't think so, I can't see what's morally wrong with wanting to prevent someone from growing up having a truly awful childhood and being miserable for however many years of their life.  I'm not sure where I stand on abortions for people who discover they are carrying a disabled person - either mentally or physically - I think it depends on the individual case, their condition and the situation the parents are in, particularly in countries where healthcare isn't free and some poorer families might not be able to afford to give the child the medical attention they need for a good quality of life (there could be some provision for this, I don't know as we have the NHS here.)

As for rapists, I know I couldn't have a child that was the result of rape.  It would mentally destroy me I think.  It was hard enough for me to move on from getting sexually assaulted by my 'best friend', and had to get rid of the mobile as it was the same as his, the xBox games he'd lent me, change the vocabulary I'd picked up from him and even then things like sleeping on the left hand side of someone freaked me out because that's how he was.  To have a constant reminder every time I looked at the child would be impossible to get over and even the fear of it would be enough to make me want an abortion, especially knowing that I would always be able to see physical traits he'd given them.  If I ever have children I'd want to love them with my whole heart and bring them up as well as I could, otherwise I don't think it's fair on them, and I know I'd not be able to if part of me was always scared that I'd not be able to cope with the memories they remind me of.

+1. I was coming back to add this, but you worded it perfectly.

Quote from: Alex000000 on August 30, 2012, 09:24:27 PM
I would much rather people had abortions than brought up a child they didn't want, love or have the means to care for.

I agree!

Quote from: Ayden on August 30, 2012, 09:15:43 PM

I doubt a doctor would do six abortions on a teenager. Not even the most liberal of people I have met would consider that reasonable and I know that most doctors who do abortions wouldn't consider that reasonable. Also, there is no connection between abortions and Down Syndrome. But even if there was an unlikely event that it was maybe connected it would be well documented. Also, people with Down Syndrome are still people, and some of the sweetest people I have ever met have had it. People who are born different are not inferior humans at all.

It was the 70s and it's not like she was required to go to the same doctor over and over, or give them her abortion history. also i never said there was a connection to down syndrome or that people with downs are bad or whatever. I've met plenty of incredible people and kids with down syndrome. In 5th grade I volunteered with the special needs pre-school class at my school and played with the coolest little boy (who happened to have down syndrome) every week and it was the best experience. Then in 6th grade at a new school I spent half my PE classes with the special needs class playing sports and stuff and developed great friendships with a boy and girl my age who also happened to have down syndrome. Moving out of state at the end of that year was especially hard on me because my new schools in california didn't have any of these programs for me to volunteer with. As I and multiple members of my family have learning disabilities, I've always felt driven to help those who have it worse than myself. So I'm sorry but, I'm a little offended by your assumptions of me as a person. You obviously do not know me at all and I'd appreciate it if you'd ask first next time.

I'm relieved that there are other guys who have the same revulsion towards pregnancy that I do.  I don't particularly like or want kids, and I certainly can't afford them, and those factors contribute to my desire not to become pregnant, but mostly I just find the idea horrifying.  It's nice to know other people do too.  As it turns out I don't appear to produce eggs, but if I did I'd certainly be taking steps to get hysto.

As far as abortion goes, that's something I think each person has to make their own choice about if they find themselves in that situation.  I do believe that the choice should be available, and I also think it's better to have an abortion than to raise a child you don't want or love.

Quote from: KyleXX on August 30, 2012, 10:40:13 PM
It was the 70s and it's not like she was required to go to the same doctor over and over, or give them her abortion history. also i never said there was a connection to down syndrome or that people with downs are bad or whatever. I've met plenty of incredible people and kids with down syndrome. In 5th grade I volunteered with the special needs pre-school class at my school and played with the coolest little boy (who happened to have down syndrome) every week and it was the best experience. Then in 6th grade at a new school I spent half my PE classes with the special needs class playing sports and stuff and developed great friendships with a boy and girl my age who also happened to have down syndrome. Moving out of state at the end of that year was especially hard on me because my new schools in california didn't have any of these programs for me to volunteer with. As I and multiple members of my family have learning disabilities, I've always felt driven to help those who have it worse than myself. So I'm sorry but, I'm a little offended by your assumptions of me as a person. You obviously do not know me at all and I'd appreciate it if you'd ask first next time.

I wasn't trying to offend you. I was just saying that abortion does not lead to disabilities. If I seemed harsh it is because I have heard that same argument come from the mouths of so many right wing old men who take the choice away from women. I have heard pastors tell rape victims that if they got an abortion then when they tried to have kids the devil would give them a deformed child. I wasn't accusing you. I was saying its a story that people use and it does not necessarily have any foundation. I only had what you wrote, and I misinterpreted your meaning. So, I apologize. My father in law works with the disabled and my husband hopes to one day. I also have disabled people in my family, including my little brother, and I have been trying to protect him from people's harshness his whole life. So, its a sensitive topic for me too.

Quote from: DianaP on August 30, 2012, 05:53:52 PM
Ok, just to be clear, testosterone doesn't make it impossible for you to get pregnant. Less likely? Yes. Impossible? No. Just be careful, regardless of being on HRT.

This.

Their body, their choice.  People forget that pro-choice =/= pro-abortion.  It's not like pro-choicers are out there forcibly aborting people.  They want them to have the right to choose what to do with their body.