You know, I was going to start a topic like this because of how hearing about all this rape stuff in the news lately made me feel. Some of the flippancy of the republican candidates in regards to rape and the inexplicable ignorance of biological facts just left me enraged. I mean, I was enraged FOR women and then I thought to myself, wait a minute, most people would think I AM a women and this would all apply to me ... And then it dredged up all the hatred I have just for my own body and how there's still people out there who think that the only purpose of females is just to pop out babies – whether they want to or not – whether that "condition" was forced on them or not. It's simply because women are the ones that carry the babies that they're subjected to this sort of thing of course and that made me feel even more like I don't even want anyone to associate me with that gender at all. Just the notion that "rape is a legitimate form of conception" seems like it came out the 1500's not 21st century. I'm not cool with anyone being forced to do something they don't want to do.

But I really don't know what to think of the whole abortion thing anymore. When it comes to rape and incest, my own personal belief is that the choice should remain with the victim. I'm sure there's a statistic out there somewhere that some victims do choose to have the baby. There's just plenty of female bodied people out there who could not morally live with themselves if they had an abortion, regardless of the circumstances. As for female bodied people who do make that choice, I think it's probably one of the hardest they'd ever make in their lives. I'm sure it's the same type of feeling as wanting a child, getting pregnant, and then miscarrying ... or finding out the baby is stillborn or has some sort of massive malfunction where it wasn't likely it would live very long. It's all just messed up no matter how you want to look at it. I believe that life does start with conception but I also believe that there's a hell of a lot more to life than meets the eye. My own personal belief is that if a fetus is never born, that lifeforce goes somewhere else, or into another fetus. That might be some rose-colored way to look at it but it suits me. I have a massive phobia of pregnancy (or even being around pregnant women). I also have a massive respect for those who choose to bring a life into the world and sacrifice a little bit of their own lives to do it.

But when it comes to laws about abortion, I think some of them are getting kind of crazy. Like this "personhood" thing and that one thing where they're counting "conception" back to the first day of the menstrual cycle (when that can be 2 weeks before someone got pregnant). What if a women legitimately miscarries ... would she be under suspicion of terminating her own pregnancy and held legally accountable ... or subjected to medical tests to determine if she "did anything" to cause it? There's so many gray areas and questions. You can't just say, "it's murder any way you slice it!" I mean, if a human body can terminate a pregnancy on it's own, that's nature, that's not "choice" ... are you still a "murderer" then? Also, there's a % of people who, if they got pregnant, probably would go the illegal route to terminate a pregnancy if abortion would be made illegal. I would think transmen would be part of that percentage just for the plain and simple fact that for a lot of them it would be so wrong they'd rather die than go through it (hell most of us won't even make a trip to the gyno, so pregnancy is just completely off the table).

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 30, 2012, 11:40:37 PM
This.

Their body, their choice.  People forget that pro-choice =/= pro-abortion.  It's not like pro-choicers are out there forcibly aborting people.  They want them to have the right to choose what to do with their body.

This is true. What I also find a little fascinating is that a lot of pro-lifers seem to be all about pro-life BEFORE birth, but then it's a non-issue after birth? What is up with that? Like I don't see them in line at the adoption clinic to take care of all the crack babies or babies born with disabilities or into horrible environments. It's just all about bringing that baby to term and into the world. I don't get that. Maybe there's some out there who do adopt or donate to different causes but it's never mentioned ... at least I don't see it. It's all just about anti-abortion.

I guess I could say I'm pro-life after birth. Hell I even looked into adoption and "drug baby" was a very high possibility and I was willing to do it anyway ... I just didn't have $15,000 (which is kind of the average adoption agencies want to charge you for the whole process).

I'm so glad I live in England and this battle doesn't constantly rage on over here about whether or not abortion should be illegal. IF it was illegal, people would still get abortions.

Pregnancy is massively demanding and parenthood even more so. I see endless teenagers/idiots with children who they neglect and the world is becoming overpopulated with morons who insist on continuing to breed, the foster care and adoption services are stretched as thin as they possibly can be from all the unwanted children being brought into the world. I don't even want to imagine what the world would be like if nobody was allowed an abortion.

If I got pregnant again I would abort without a second thought...and I don't want anyone to think I'm using abortion as my plan A. My partner has had a vasectomy AND we use condoms AND I'm on E-blockers - the changes of me ever getting pregnant again are very slim but it's nice to know I have that choice there if I need it. If that choice wasn't there I would never have sex again until my insides were removed.

Sure in an ideal world contraception would never fail and nobody would ever get raped. But these things happen. The only sure fire way to make sure abortions would never be needed is if everyone was celibate until they actually wanted children and rapists didn't exist. Which is just unrealistic.

Banning abortion doesn't stop it. Statistics back me up. Every year, the WHO reports that nearly 42 million people across the world had abortions, about 20 million of those were illegal and unsafe (and that's just the reported ones). So the only thing banning abortion would bring is clogging up our already overpopulated jails XP.

I'm not here to discuss the ethics of abortion since most people who have already chosen a side on this debate will never change their minds no matter what. No one needs to know how I actually feel about abortion on a personal level either. That is between me, God, my partner, and my uterus which I "affectionately" call my tumor sack (uterine tumors run in the family).

I will say (since it was brought up) that pregnancy is horrible and childbirth is a freaking bloodbath @_@. I do not care who I offend, I've seen the worst in pregnancy and my mind will never change! D:< Hell, one of my friends is suffering from hyperemesis right now (google it :'P). She's actually connected to a PICC line right now and on total bed rest so she may actually gain some weight XP. While she loves her fetus, she is counting down the days till it's out and she can feel somewhat normal again. By the way, she personally refers to it as fetus, parasite, and alien xD. It's movements are so creepy o.o. You can see the kicking through her skin! D: She hates the movements XP. She's actually decided she's done having kids after this. Poor bastard, I don't blame her ;_;.

My biggest want in life is to have a family, I love children, yet I accepted at a young age that I would be unable to have children. I cant produce sperm, and the "other" way was never an option in my mind (and now would be impossible, so I am sterile now!)
So this is where my standpoint comes from. In terms of rape, especially of children, I think yes, abortion should be allowed. However there should still be rules and regulations around this to make sure people who dont legitimately need one, fall through, such as people who just couldnt be bothered to use protection before hand (this is much easier said than done Im sure, so Im glad I dont have to sort and regulate this :p but in an ideal world people would just be honest, haha)

Other than cases like rape, I dont think people should be allowed abortions. There are cases where these womens rights go too far and the guy didnt even get a say in the situation.
And like had been mentioned before, there are still cases of women and girls having a ridiculous amount of abortions, as if its some easy post conception contraception (rhyme).
I think it gets out of hand, how many abortions are allowed to happen. In some cases, yes it should be allowed, but not nearly as many as there are, and the late abortions are just ridiculous.
For people who want but cant have children without a lengthy and pricey process, abortions happening all the time is just upsetting.

Anyway, thats my opinion there...

Quote from: Make_It_Good on August 31, 2012, 05:43:37 AM
In terms of rape, especially of children, I think yes, abortion should be allowed. However there should still be rules and regulations around this to make sure people who dont legitimately need one, fall through, such as people who just couldnt be bothered to use protection before hand (this is much easier said than done Im sure, so Im glad I dont have to sort and regulate this :p but in an ideal world people would just be honest, haha)

If they couldn't be bothered to use protection then are they going to be bothered to raise a child properly?  I'm not attacking your views, we've all got the right to believe what we feel is right, just wondering if you've thought about that.

I will say I'm also very much in favor of "abortion prevention." In many European countries the attitude towards sex is much different than it is here in the US which is part of the reason why the abortion rate is lower.

If contraception in all of its various forms were made available for everybody who is sexually active (and yes, this includes access to people who are minors and people with very low incomes). Young people should be educated about sex, and forms of birth control before they're having sex. In my school we didn't have a comprehensive sex education course until our junior year in high school (age 16/17). Students were not allowed to take the course until that year.

My college sex ed course which was much more comprehensive proved (to me at least) that schools aren't very good at educating people about sexual health. Most of the guys who were bragging about how much action they got didn't know how to properly use a condom and many admitted to not using condoms all the time. I also remember the professor spoke about a survey that used to be done after a semester of sex ed. Students had sex as often or less often after taking the course. Many got tested for STDs because of the course who never were tested before.

I think abortion should be legal as long as it not for "small details" where you pick and leave, whatever you want.
---
But I belive the mother is the one who will cary and raise and the child, if she isn't mentally, or physically, or have the money,
to raise a kid and know it, then I dont find it wrong as I belive it can cause more damage than good.

remember in some of those caises where people die from giving birth, or the kids are trown away in garbish just because they know they cant afford to keep it.

I belive if people arnt ready and get abortion they might be ready later in life to get a new chance where they can give there child a proper life, kids are a big responsibilaty, and if you know you cant take care of them, then you shouldnt have them, its like animals. dont get a dog if you only will let ot starve.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 31, 2012, 11:00:15 AM
If contraception in all of its various forms were made available for everybody who is sexually active (and yes, this includes access to people who are minors and people with very low incomes). Young people should be educated about sex, and forms of birth control before they're having sex. In my school we didn't have a comprehensive sex education course until our junior year in high school (age 16/17). Students were not allowed to take the course until that year.

when I was in school we started having sexual education during 6 grade (around 12 years old) in the standard basic, where we learned about love, puberty, and body changes.
after then we got more serious topic, like sexual crimes,
laws, preventions, illness and so from 8-10 grade.
(14-17 year old..)

16 year sound old to me, as most people here usunaly have there first time between 14-17. I agree its important to know how to protect yourself. it should be something everyone had to learn a few years before you expected them to to something about it. I am alittle disapointed that mostly sexual education isnt seam like a big deal in school. Is only something you got once in a while.
But I got it with many repeatings since I changed class, and got new pupils who also had to get it repeated. So I turned out as the class sex expert on a few topics LOL..
XD

I had my first sex ed lesson waaaay young. I wasn't even in high school, so around 10 years old?

They showed us a full on video recording of a woman giving birth, it was horrendous.

Quote from: Jeatyn on August 31, 2012, 02:19:55 PM
I had my first sex ed lesson waaaay young. I wasn't even in high school, so around 10 years old?

They showed us a full on video recording of a woman giving birth, it was horrendous.

My parents read me "The Book of Sex" when I was 5...

Quote from: Alex000000 on August 31, 2012, 07:22:51 AM
If they couldn't be bothered to use protection then are they going to be bothered to raise a child properly?  I'm not attacking your views, we've all got the right to believe what we feel is right, just wondering if you've thought about that.

I think its good to hear other peoples countering views, it can help me see a point I may have missed! In terms of your response, I would say that I guess there are many cases where people are just "caught in the moment" which can lead to unprotected sex, and therefore them not using protection, may not demonstrate any inability they have to put effort into things, including something as big as raising a child. Even people who simply cant be bothered to use a condom, and/or had no desire for kids, afterward find that in them was alot of space to grow and learn to love the child and passionately and lovingly raise them.
   Having a child thats your own flesh and blood can change people (not everyone, mind you...)

I know the pain of being born to parents who weren't ready. Maybe some people can rise to the challenge of an unexpected child, but others can't.

I had a sex-ed class here in Aus every year from year four (8-10 years old) through to the end of college (17-19 years old), obviously stepping up in intensity as the students aged.

It's not a big topic here, but it does come up every now and then, and I personally am pro-choice. I'm not sure what I think of late-stage abortions though, as I consider an abortion to be something someone would do when they know they cannot carry/care for/deal with having/etc a child. It would be something they would need to think about for a few weeks, or maybe something they would know in an instant, but months?

But I do not see anything wrong with a woman getting an abortion if she knows she cannot give the child the life that it deserves. I consider this kind of 'life' that we're talking about to be 'awareness'. That new phoetus has no personality, no memories, no feelings, no emotions, and so in my own personal opinion I do not yet consider it 'life'. So of course to me it does not follow that this is 'a life taken', or 'murder'. I believe a person is the mind, not the flesh.

On the legal matter, I think no matter what your personal opinion or view is on the matter, this medical practice cannot be made illegal. Thousands would die or suffer severe complications during unsafe and unhygenic home abortions.

As to the men being given a say, well yes, they should have some say. That is why they should go to the woman and plead their case, make real promises of commitment, or of financial/emotional/physical aid to make her journey with the child easier. But should they have any legal right? No. It is utterly wrong for anyone to force a woman to go through unwanted pregnancy. I liken this to the same kind of crime and psychology as torture or rape, and would undoubtedly cause inconceivable repercussions to the mother and child's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.

I think that as soon as conception occurs life has begun for the "cells," though I would call it a baby, in the womb. As such, I think that child deserves just as much protection as I do. I am for the saving of life in all cases. I know, even though my life is hard, I would have not wanted my mom to abort me. Life is sacred, and it is a gift beyond our greatest imagination. I know many will hate me for saying this, but it is simply what I believe. People hate me for being a woman, and people can hate me for loving life.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on August 31, 2012, 06:17:52 PM
I think that as soon as conception occurs life has begun for the "cells," though I would call it a baby, in the womb. As such, I think that child deserves just as much protection as I do. I am for the saving of life in all cases. I know, even though my life is hard, I would have not wanted my mom to abort me. Life is sacred, and it is a gift beyond our greatest imagination. I know many will hate me for saying this, but it is simply what I believe. People hate me for being a woman, and people can hate me for loving life.

I share your beliefs, fortunately you and I will never have to make that decision. I'm never critical of those who feel that they have to for whatever reason because we all have free will and our decisions are our own to live with. I strongly disagree with those who protest in front of abortion clinics and try to interfere with other people's decisions concerning their life and the life inside of them, the business of making judgments belongs to God and not other human beings. So far I've yet to see one of those protesters step up to the plate and offer to pay for and support the unborn fetus until it reaches adulthood.

Quote from: Alex000000 on August 31, 2012, 07:22:51 AM
If they couldn't be bothered to use protection then are they going to be bothered to raise a child properly?

Abortion is a form of birth control.

Quote from: Bane on August 31, 2012, 06:04:12 PM
As to the men being given a say, well yes, they should have some say. That is why they should go to the woman and plead their case, make real promises of commitment, or of financial/emotional/physical aid to make her journey with the child easier. But should they have any legal right? No. It is utterly wrong for anyone to force a woman to go through unwanted pregnancy. I liken this to the same kind of crime and psychology as torture or rape, and would undoubtedly cause inconceivable repercussions to the mother and child's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.

I agree. Can a man try to convince a woman to have a baby? Sure. However, in the end, it is 100% HER DECISION. Pregnancy sucks; it comes with mood swings, bloating, weight gain, fatigue, insomnia, swelling of feet, and many other effects. Aside from the physical, it's also not fair to put a woman through the emotional burden of pregnancy, and even financial burden. What if she has a physical job? If she's a firefighter, especially in the UK where maternity benefits for female firefighters are, in lack of a better word, lacking, what is she to do? The bottom line is that everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue, but no one has the right to put women through something they don't want to do. (Sounds a bit misogynistic to me.)

Quote from: Hippolover25 on August 31, 2012, 06:17:52 PM
I would have not wanted my mom to abort me. Life is sacred, and it is a gift beyond our greatest imagination. I know many will hate me for saying this, but it is simply what I believe.

Well, I may disagree with you on when life truly begins, but know that I for one don't hate you. You're entitled to your opinion. However, I also disagree with the idea of not wanting to be aborted. Honestly, I wouldn't care if I was aborted simply because I would not have been sentient, yet alone know that I even existed. Life isn't perfect and a fetus has nothing to come to the world to live for, nor can it perceive anything, so I don't see anything wrong with abortion at any stage. Some people can change their minds at any point in pregnancy. It's her choice.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 31, 2012, 12:51:00 AM
This is true. What I also find a little fascinating is that a lot of pro-lifers seem to be all about pro-life BEFORE birth, but then it's a non-issue after birth? What is up with that? Like I don't see them in line at the adoption clinic to take care of all the crack babies or babies born with disabilities or into horrible environments. It's just all about bringing that baby to term and into the world. I don't get that. Maybe there's some out there who do adopt or donate to different causes but it's never mentioned ... at least I don't see it. It's all just about anti-abortion.

I guess I could say I'm pro-life after birth. Hell I even looked into adoption and "drug baby" was a very high possibility and I was willing to do it anyway ... I just didn't have $15,000 (which is kind of the average adoption agencies want to charge you for the whole process).

This is actually a huge part of the debate from a lot of my friends. What happens to the unwanted kids after they are born? Who takes care of them? They just go into a overburdened and underfunded child welfare system that can't take care of them. For the people who do want to adopt them, they can't afford to for the most part. Frankly though, the people who are lining up to adopt are slim on the ground it seems. Most want to adopt children from foreign nations (not sure if its "trendy" because of celebrities or they think those kids need it more) which actually costs more to do so. People who are willing to adopt children who have special needs, are born with drug addiction or are high risk are very few and far between. Sadly, I have even seen skin color come into play and its sad.

Quote from: Make_It_Good on August 31, 2012, 05:43:27 PM
I think its good to hear other peoples countering views, it can help me see a point I may have missed! In terms of your response, I would say that I guess there are many cases where people are just "caught in the moment" which can lead to unprotected sex, and therefore them not using protection, may not demonstrate any inability they have to put effort into things, including something as big as raising a child. Even people who simply cant be bothered to use a condom, and/or had no desire for kids, afterward find that in them was alot of space to grow and learn to love the child and passionately and lovingly raise them.
   Having a child thats your own flesh and blood can change people (not everyone, mind you...)

Alex beat me to the question.  But, what about couples who do take precautions and the birth control fails? I was on the pill and my partner was using condoms and I still ended up pregnant. In our case, we were poor. He was in college and I was only working part time since I moved out at 16 and had not gotten a full time position yet, so between us we only had maybe enough to cover the bills and even then there were days that we went without eating because we had unexpected bills come up. Not all abortions are used as birth control, in some cases its a situation that could be potentially really bad for everyone involved. It is not rape, but wouldn't a situation like that make an abortion understandable? (Don't get me wrong I'm not attacking you at all, I'm just having fun now.)

Quote from: edderkopp on August 31, 2012, 05:47:08 PM
I know the pain of being born to parents who weren't ready. Maybe some people can rise to the challenge of an unexpected child, but others can't.

This was me too. I was the first and my parents were not ready and a result I went through some pretty awful experiences that I wouldn't wish on any other person. Not even my worst enemy should have to feel like that. I hope your relationship with your parents got better as time went on.

Quote from: Bane on August 31, 2012, 06:04:12 PM
On the legal matter, I think no matter what your personal opinion or view is on the matter, this medical practice cannot be made illegal. Thousands would die or suffer severe complications during unsafe and unhygenic home abortions.

As to the men being given a say, well yes, they should have some say. That is why they should go to the woman and plead their case, make real promises of commitment, or of financial/emotional/physical aid to make her journey with the child easier. But should they have any legal right? No. It is utterly wrong for anyone to force a woman to go through unwanted pregnancy. I liken this to the same kind of crime and psychology as torture or rape, and would undoubtedly cause inconceivable repercussions to the mother and child's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.

On the father's rights - sure, he has rights, but he does not have control over the mother. End of story. He can promise to be there, support her, take care of the child after birth. He can even say he will take care of the child and she doesn't have too. But, forcing a woman to go through with it is what I would equate to torture. I've seen first had the kind of mental damage and later emotional abuse that happens when someone is convinced to keep a child they didn't want. It is really awful.

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 31, 2012, 07:40:51 PM
Abortion is a form of birth control.

A lot of people feel this way, and yes in a way it is. But, they are really very painful. I cannot see anyone willingly going through with them repeatedly. I have a very high pain thresh hold and I certainly would not want another one.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on August 31, 2012, 06:17:52 PM
I think that as soon as conception occurs life has begun for the "cells," though I would call it a baby, in the womb. As such, I think that child deserves just as much protection as I do. I am for the saving of life in all cases. I know, even though my life is hard, I would have not wanted my mom to abort me. Life is sacred, and it is a gift beyond our greatest imagination. I know many will hate me for saying this, but it is simply what I believe. People hate me for being a woman, and people can hate me for loving life.

You certainly have the right to your beliefs, but forcing your beliefs on someone else is not right. I will totally defend your right to feel that way, as long as you don't force me to do anything with my uterus. Equate it to Christian Scientists who believe that prayer, not medicine heals. It is their right to believe that, but they do not have the right to tell someone they cannot seek treatment for an illness. In hindsight, I'm glad my mother didn't abort me too and I'm glad that there are a lot of people whose parents didn't end the pregnancies.

The thing that people seem to forget in all this is that people don't line up for abortions like a free candy giveaway. Not only are they very painful but in the states there is a horrible social stigma attached to someone who chose to for a variety of reasons. Because I was poor, couldn't afford it, have a terrible fear of anything related to pregnancy, had two forms of contraception that failed, and knew I was not in place to raise a kid (lest I repeat my parents mistakes), I had to have the stigma of being loose, a slut, a heartless b****, an immature kid, etc attached to me. No matter what people may say, it is not an easy choice and once you experience it once I can promise only the most hardcore of masochists would want to experience it again.

A question related to this: If abortion were illegal, what punishment should be given to women who have abortions?